Soft - Why It Matters?

[JB]

I spent some time yesterday on the phone with a R&D person at one of the major golf companies and we got to talking about clubs and putters and the notion of that feeling of "softness" that one gets. He had a very unique thought on this and that is in a nutshell that "If the softness, truly only happens at the minute timing of impact, then it should not make any difference because the person is hitting the ground, hitting a different ball, and their hands will be in a glove at times. Furthermore if it is actually a sensation that we as golfers feel, would the persons hands not have the biggest impact along with the swing compared to any piece of equipment" [as it relates to softness]

He then spoke about putters and how purists discuss that soft feeling of certain metal putters that they can achieve, but then look away from insert laden putters that can actually alter the feeling from metal and are clearly even softer. To use his words, "If the goal is [buttery] soft, why would an insert not be the ideal solution, since it is almost always going to be softer than its metal counterpart".

It got me thinking a lot about this and in fact I was up most of the night thinking about it. If the goal is softness, could our goals as golfers be overcoming what our mind feels as soft? Meaning, are we thinking soft before and after impact with certain things that a sound is telling us that "X is softer than Y" and "Z is harsher than X".

Are we programmed to think that ABC is softer than DEF, so naturally it will feel that way on our good shots? If we are also programmed that "hard" equals distance and advancing the ball to certain lengths is the goal, would hard not be a better option to provide real world results?

I am genuinely curious about everybody's input here and would love to hear your thoughts on softness as it relates to real world findings. Lets keep this thread free of "jokes" and anything else and have an honest discussion about the sensations that we, as golfers, are getting through our hands and how we relate that to speaking of clubs.

 

[One-T]

wow, tuff discussion here. I dont just go for softness...or so I think. I go for what feels best on all types of shots. As for putters, I obviuosly dont just lean towards that. I have a milled faced putter which I much more prefer the feeling over an insert.

 

[#Cookie]

I can't say that I have ever felt anything I would describe as soft with a full iron shot. The closest to it is perhaps sliding under a ball with a flop shot via the wedge.

I think that some golfers relate "softness" off of irons through the feeling of almost nothingness at impact. By nothingness, I mean no vibrations or harsh feedback. Just a shot where you get the ball first and the club moves through the turf with ease.

In this case, it's just soft being opposite of hard because even a well struck iron shot is by no means soft at impact IMO.

 

[blugold]

Feedback is much more important to me. I need to be able to feel where I miss, so I can quickly analyse what went wrong, or right. My problem with inserts on putters is that it makes the entire space with the insert feel the same, generally speaking. It is harder for me to feel if I missed to the toe, heel, high, or low on the face. Even though I play forged irons, I am not that big of a fan of "buttery" feelings. I like being able to know instantly if I missed the sweetspot. The focus on "softness", in irons and putters specifically, I think comes from how many times those clubs are poorly swung. And very few people want to feel that hard and painful truth of their miss. So they want that soft feeling to coddle them into a sense of being better than they are.

 

[Hawk]

I don't have a softer putter at my house than the Odyssey White Hot Rossie. It's almost inaudible compared to the milled-face putters I have. Truth be told, I prefer firmness or a little more click. It's basically all sound to me with the putter. The main sensation I get in my hands with putting is when I hit the face off-center.

As for irons, I don't know that you can get much softer sounding or feeling than the Adams Redlines, which have an insert in the back and really mask vibrations well. In fact, I'd say the forged iron I play feels and sounds sharper, and provides more feedback to the hands, especially on off-center hits. I think that is as much to do with the constuction of the iron itself as it is the material it's made of. I relate lack of sensation in my hands on off-center hits as softness. I can't say I really have a preference aside from the fact that I don't care for stinging hands much. Regarding sound with irons, I relate lower tones at impact to softness.

 

[Tbox]

I would say that the feel of a club or putter is critical. I am a feel player. I don't like technical data and a bunch of swing thoughts. I rely completely on the feedback of the club to tell me my good and bad swings. To me, a forged club gives me a better "response" than a cast iron. I have never really considered that "long equals hard" to be an accurate comment. Too me that is not an issue. I don't see the advantage of hitting a harder golf ball for minimal distance gain and sacrifice the feel and touch on approach shots and around the green. I will take the spin and feel over the 3 yards of distance gain.

 

[Joshzilla]

I notice sound a lot more than feel and I think that's how I equate softness. Not to say that I don't notice the hardness with my hands, but it honestly just doesn't matter to me. For example, playing a Pro-V1 vs Pro-V1x...I don't notice a difference in feel, but I do notice more of the 'click' with the Pro-V1x. Same deal with Srixon and Bridgestone...I really only notice sound. Occasionally I can tell a difference in ball feel with my putter.

Speaking of putters, I recently changed from a milled face putter (Cleveland Classics) to an insert (Taylormade TM-110) and this is different than the softness as it relates to the golf ball. With the milled face putter the feedback is different than that of the insert. Not better or worse...just different. I really don't know that it is fair to call the sensation hard vs soft, but a better desciption doesn't occur to me...except maybe that the impact resonates more with the milled face. On the other hand, the grip of the milled face putter was very hard and that of the insert putter is very soft. This could easily be the difference.

I currently play a forged cavity back iron. Before that was a caset cavity back iron. The sensation at impact (to me) isn't that different. As fast as the clubface is moving, I don't notice the feel of the ball but instead notice how much of a divot I am taking (or lack thereof).

In the end, I think there is certainly scientific evidence of the distance performance of a hard vs soft golf ball but I don't think it is something we (at least I) physically perceive. I think we look for it because we are told we should by marketing geniouses.

My opinion will probably change tomorrow, but that's what I think today.

 

[Anders73]

I can't say that I have ever felt anything I would describe as soft with a full iron shot. The closest to it is perhaps sliding under a ball with a flop shot via the wedge.

I think that some golfers relate "softness" off of irons through the feeling of almost nothingness at impact. By nothingness, I mean no vibrations or harsh feedback. Just a shot where you get the ball first and the club moves through the turf with ease.

In this case, it's just soft being opposite of hard because even a well struck iron shot is by no means soft at impact IMO.

That's how I would view it, perhaps as high handicapper I would notice (or not notice if you like) it more as it happens less frequently for me and when I catch an iron spot on it does almost feel like I have hit nothing

 

[Jman]

I don't have a softer putter at my house than the Odyssey White Hot Rossie. It's almost inaudible compared to the milled-face putters I have. Truth be told, I prefer firmness or a little more click. It's basically all sound to me with the putter. The main sensation I get in my hands with putting is when I hit the face off-center.

This is my take 100% on putters. Yes, I can tell the difference in my stainless putters compared to carbon ones via "softness" but its more the feedback translated to my hands, the key for me isn't softness, its the feedback through the sound...I like a nice Mills-esque "click" to it. I will talk openly about some putters (milled) feeling softer than others but its all in perspective of I don't care for how much softer some inserts are (they have never lasted in my bag) so I really don't include those in my discussion of "softness".

As for irons, I honestly don't care. I've gamed forged, non-forged, GI, SGI, players, and I get more feedback form the shaft than the head personally.

All of this rambling probably makes no sense to anyone outside my crazy mind.

 

[JB]

I would say that the feel of a club or putter is critical. I am a feel player. I don't like technical data and a bunch of swing thoughts. I rely completely on the feedback of the club to tell me my good and bad swings. To me, a forged club gives me a better "response" than a cast iron. I have never really considered that "long equals hard" to be an accurate comment. Too me that is not an issue. I don't see the advantage of hitting a harder golf ball for minimal distance gain and sacrifice the feel and touch on approach shots and around the green. I will take the spin and feel over the 3 yards of distance gain.

How is this accomplished? I am guessing you mean softer metals used in forging than harder in cast and not the process itself, right?
Regardless of that, I think the question or conversation I was asking about was the idea that "soft" as it relates to irons is a minute impact that is heavily changed by so many factors outside of the club. So if that is the case, how are we feeling soft in a steel iron, when an insert lets say will clearly add more "softness" as it relates to the hands and so would graphite shafts technically.

Furthermore, if forging as you related truly gives off a softer feel, how does "kind of forging" like the TM CBs relate where the club is actually not forged, but a portion of it is? Does that make it kind of soft or do you get the benefits of our mentality that says "this is soft, so it feels soft". Genuinely curious.

 

[thedue]

I only partially believe that sound effects a notion of softness. I'm extremely hard of hearing yet I can easily tell one putter from the next in terms of firm to soft. To be honest, with irons, I've always felt the fitting process makes a huge difference in "Softness", or it could simply be the shaft. The more you can find the center of the face the less vibrations you receive to the hands and the softer your sensation.

I've been experimenting lately with different putters, a mix of inserts and milled. One of my deep milled putters feels as "soft" as my SeeMore insert if I hit the sweet spot. The real difference there is that I can miss the sweet spot on the SM and still get a similar feel, miss it on the milled and it's much harsher.

 

[JB]

As fast as the clubface is moving, I don't notice the feel of the ball but instead notice how much of a divot I am taking (or lack thereof).

In the end, I think there is certainly scientific evidence of the distance performance of a hard vs soft golf ball but I don't think it is something we (at least I) physically perceive. I think we look for it because we are told we should by marketing geniouses.

Really interesting stuff here. I kind of agree with you about turf interaction playing a bigger role in the sensation we feel than we might think it does.

 

[Puttin4Bird]

Man this is actually a tough one to pin point. I have putters with inserts and I have some milled faced putters and really some just feel different and better than others, not taking softness into consideration. Softness when it comes to irons is pretty subjective to the user to me, I personally think I prefer a softer feeling iron, but then again some sets I've had recently aren't as soft and I didn't mind them either. If the performance is there then I'm able to give or take the soft feel, but ideally if 2 sets of irons performed similarly and one felt softer to me than the other I'd lean toward that softer feel every day of the week.

I think a lot of it is sort of a cliche word that people hear and like to apply it to what they think they want, it almost goes back to the age old debate of Forged vs. Cast in a way. People think they want soft but they really don't even know what they're actually looking for to know soft vs. firm. I've played forged players irons that are supposed to be the softest and best feeling irons on the planet and while they are nice, I've hit shots with my Burner 2.0 irons that felt every bit as good if not better than a lot of shots with those forged clubs.

 

[Hanks]

If I'm reading the OP correctly, I think we may want the best of both worlds. We are programmed in golf to believe that 'softer is better than hard' because that's supposedly a better and more sought after experience. However the trade off is conceptually less distance. The issue is that we want both distance with a softer feeling which isn't always the case so I guess how well someone can combine or compromise the two feelings is the true goal of a golfer?

 

[Joshzilla]

I would say that the feel of a club or putter is critical. I am a feel player. I don't like technical data and a bunch of swing thoughts. I rely completely on the feedback of the club to tell me my good and bad swings. To me, a forged club gives me a better "response" than a cast iron. I have never really considered that "long equals hard" to be an accurate comment. Too me that is not an issue. I don't see the advantage of hitting a harder golf ball for minimal distance gain and sacrifice the feel and touch on approach shots and around the green. I will take the spin and feel over the 3 yards of distance gain.

I thought the same thing, but took a step back and thought about it. If I mishit a ball, I am going to know it regardless of forged vs cast. Have you hit Ping irons? They are cast and as hard as I try I cannot feel a difference between them and a comparable forged club.

Totally agree with you on not taking gains in distance and sacrificing approach shots, but to me it's about the performance and not about the feel.

Regarding my approach shots, I too consider myself to be a feel player but I don't think I mean it the same way that you do. I consider those shots to be more...instintual rather than mechanical. To me personally, I don't understand how to be a feel player if you relate that to sensation at impact. If you feel it...it's too late, right? If you're saying you learn from that feel combined with the outcome and apply it next time then I totally get that, but you have to know how you got there.

(Please don't think I'm picking on you because I'm not...your comment actually made me think about this topic in a way I haven't before.)

 

[blugold]

I think the question or conversation I was asking about was the idea that "soft" as it relates to irons is a minute impact that is heavily changed by so many factors outside of the club.

Those outside factors also have to include a bad swing. When an inconsistent swinger of the golf club misses the sweetspot of the club, the softness of the club is used to hide that tactile feedback. Softness is what the market wants, because that softness hides how often the market of golfers misses the sweetspot of the club.

 

[Tmex]

I think sound/feel go hand in hand. When I use different putters, how that ball sounds off the face can really impact what I feel. With my Method, its little firmer sounding than the Wilson Staff, but it also has a reaction to a golf ball that I perceive as better feeling off the face. Soft but not as giving as the Wilson. sometimes when I feel like the putter gives too much, it doesnt feel soft but rather squishy.

I think the hands can get in the way too especially with irons/wedges. Reason I say this is because different shafts can impact what gets back to your hands. They can impact the sound. I honestly feel like without the vibration, I get a better sense of soft both sound/feel off the face of my ZStars.

 

[JB]

Those outside factors also have to include a bad swing. When an inconsistent swinger of the golf club misses the sweetspot of the club, the softness of the club is used to hide that tactile feedback. Softness is what the market wants, because that softness hides how often the market of golfers misses the sweetspot of the club.

If that is the case, why are forged blades considered softer than large hybrids? Certainly the smaller blades provide more feedback than that of a large oversize club head right?

 

[blugold]

If that is the case, why are forged blades considered softer than large hybrids? Certainly the smaller blades provide more feedback than that of a large oversize club head right?

Yes, but I rarely see new sets of blades played by golfers at the courses I go to. I do see more of the larger headed irons. I haven't spoken with those golfers about why they went with that iron. But I bet I would get a few answers like, "When I hit the blades, they hurt my hands, they weren't very soft. When I hit these shovels, they were so soft." Granted I am now putting words into people's mouths to fit my belief. But I am going with it.

 

[ddec]

I've always been told that softer is better when it comes to wedges and putters. I used to use an old NC putter that gave a hard feel and not a soft one. When deciding on a gap wedge a few years ago a co worker at Golf Galaxy told me I was a fool for taking a harder feeling cast wedge over a softer feeling forged one.

I think soft has just become one of those buzz words. Sure clubs feel different, there are different materials so of course there is a difference.

 

[JB]

I've always been told that softer is better when it comes to wedges and putters. I used to use an old NC putter that gave a hard feel and not a soft one. When deciding on a gap wedge a few years ago a co worker at Golf Galaxy told me I was a fool for taking a harder feeling cast wedge over a softer feeling forged one.

I think soft has just become one of those buzz words. Sure clubs feel different, there are different materials so of course there is a difference.

See, I always wondered this as well. If softer is really a better thing and we can truly tell the difference, why are some of the most sought after wedges in the world, harder by comparison according to consumers and the way they are constructed.

 

[Tmex]

I almost think too, when people talk about soft, I would think you can really only say that with Pure strikes. If you're not hitting them 100% of time and you took the same misses with an R11 or TM MB, I dont see how overall, the MB would be considered softer. Especially if you miss over 50%of your shots.

 

[blugold]

See, I always wondered this as well. If softer is really a better thing and we can truly tell the difference, why are some of the most sought after wedges in the world, harder by comparison according to consumers and the way they are constructed.

Simple answer, most consumers are stupid.

 

[ddec]

See, I always wondered this as well. If softer is really a better thing and we can truly tell the difference, why are some of the most sought after wedges in the world, harder by comparison according to consumers and the way they are constructed.

Marketing and Brand awareness would be my guess

This is a really interesting topic. Perhaps a future radio show or newsletter piece?

 

[Tbox]

How is this accomplished? I am guessing you mean softer metals used in forging than harder in cast and not the process itself, right?
Regardless of that, I think the question or conversation I was asking about was the idea that "soft" as it relates to irons is a minute impact that is heavily changed by so many factors outside of the club. So if that is the case, how are we feeling soft in a steel iron, when an insert lets say will clearly add more "softness" as it relates to the hands and so would graphite shafts technically.

Furthermore, if forging as you related truly gives off a softer feel, how does "kind of forging" like the TM CBs relate where the club is actually not forged, but a portion of it is? Does that make it kind of soft or do you get the benefits of our mentality that says "this is soft, so it feels soft". Genuinely curious.

Since I am left handed I do not have a lot of experience so I can only go by what I have experienced from the clubs I have owned. The last set of cast irons I owned I could feel the ball at impact no matter where it contacted the face. There was a "thud" feeling on all shots. That made it difficult to understand the feedback. With the next set, Mizuno MP-32's, when the ball was hit solidly I really could not "feel" the impact of the ball. It was more like a "hot knife thru butter" with just a small amount of resistance. On shots that were off-center, there was an instant feedback that I could easily decipher what went wrong. The TP CB's give me this similar feeling. That is what I meant by the response.

Another example that I have experienced is in the wedges I have owned. I had a 52* Vokey and a 50* Cleveland CG 10 at the same time. I could hit the 52* Vokey longer than the 50* CG10 (115 compared to 105), but I really liked the feel of the CG10 better. To me, it gave a softer and more "understandable" feel. This may not make much sense but it is the best way I can think of explaining the difference.

I have never used graphite shafts in irons, so I have no basis to measure against a steel shaft.