Camilo possible rules violation... Phoned in?

[golf4life]

Don't know if this has been posted already but Camilo DID get DQ'd today. My take on this is that he indeed broke a rule, but accidentally in my opinion. Similar to Dustin Johnson's famous bunker on 18 at Whistling Straits, after which he remarked, "what bunker?" and later said, "i had no idea my ball was in a bunker, it never appeared that way to me." the difference is though that Johnson's penalty was recognized by a PGA official before the tournament was over. i think it's a little immature or over-the-top for somebody to call a penalty in when clearly nobody on the course or in the booth realized it. as golfers we are responsible for many rules that we must call on ourself (ie. Brian Davis with the loose impediment at the Verizon Heritage), but if you don't realize that you have broken a rule then how are you going to call it on yourself. the way i see it, instead of Camilo lashing out in frustration and hitting his bag with the wedge or smacking out out a chunk of ground, he angrily flipped the few pieces of turf from the divot he took.

On a side note, why didn't anybody call out Graeme McDowell when his ball clearly moved a little in the rough due to him moving around near the ball. Even Faldo said something like, "watch out Graeme!" yet even though people on the property saw this he was not penalized and nobody called in to get him DQ'd. it's just like any sport that has replay capability, and you don't hear about people calling in when there's a clearcut mistake made by refs or umpires.

As a college player and long time tournament golfer, I would be quite upset if I turned in a score that I, as well as the rules officials, coaches, and my competitors agreed was correct. and somebody like a spectator or outside force called me out the next day. Not quite the same context but the same concept. btw, this is all my opinion

A couple things:

For the Villegas situation, to me, it looked like he was clearly trying to make sure the divot pieces were well out of the way of the ball that was coming back down to his position. It didn't look like a frustrated hack at the turf, but a clear attempt to make sure that the landing area for the ball was clear. And the ball ultimately came to rest about a foot from where he hit it last so it was indeed potentially in play. A caller wouldn't have to call in and identify a rule violation had Villegas known the rule in question.... it was pretty clear to me he did not know the rule, I don't believe he was trying to cheat, just ignorant.

For the Graeme McDowell situation, I saw that too, but his ball appeared to oscillate and return to the same position unmoved. I believe that is allowed under the rules of golf.

 

[AK jr.]

A couple things:

For the Villegas situation, to me, it looked like he was clearly trying to make sure the divot pieces were well out of the way of the ball that was coming back down to his position. It didn't look like a frustrated hack at the turf, but a clear attempt to make sure that the landing area for the ball was clear. And the ball ultimately came to rest about a foot from where he hit it last so it was indeed potentially in play. A caller wouldn't have to call in and identify a rule violation had Villegas known the rule in question.... it was pretty clear to me he did not know the rule, I don't believe he was trying to cheat, just ignorant.

For the Graeme McDowell situation, I saw that too, but his ball appeared to oscillate and return to the same position unmoved. I believe that is allowed under the rules of golf.

as for Graeme, I was unsure about it, thanks for clarifying.

as for Villegas, ignorant is probably the best explanation. referring back to a previous post though, i feel like the infraction happened at the course, not on somebody's couch

 

[golf4life]

as for Graeme, I was unsure about it, thanks for clarifying.

as for Villegas, ignorant is probably the best explanation. referring back to a previous post though, i feel like the infraction happened at the course, not on somebody's couch

I agree with you about Villegas, it should not come down to a caller being the one to enforce the rules on the PGA tour.

 

[Stevens24]

At his point on the tour you should assume you are on TV all of the time, one of the hazards of being on tour. But it is the resposibility of the player to know the rules. Maybe it was a rules official from Ponte Vedra who sees it and makes the call? Know the rules and if in doubt do'nt do it and ask for a ruling.

 

[staticline]

as for Graeme, I was unsure about it, thanks for clarifying.

as for Villegas, ignorant is probably the best explanation. referring back to a previous post though, i feel like the infraction happened at the course, not on somebody's couch

I'm pretty sure Villegas knew the rule. He just had a brainfart. It happens.

 

[Golf 'N Gator]

From what I saw, it honestly looked like he deliberately tried to clear the path of the ball.
The ball was rolling back down the hill, and he removed debris that was there in front of him and the ball. The ball did not travel over or exactly near the debris he removed, but I think the action was still there.

That is the way I see it also. He stepped away, watched the ball coming down, looked at it path and stepped back to swip the divot remains out of the way. I heard them say he had no idea this was a violation, but handled as a professional when he was told.

 

[Ole Gray]

I agree with you about Villegas, it should not come down to a caller being the one to enforce the rules on the PGA tour.

Yep I also agree a couch potatoe should keep his arse on the couch and out of the game. I hope the dude is happy now and it made his day to be mentioned as the unofficial ref.

 

[Golfin303]

Who cares? THe pros don't follow y'all around and make sure everybody plays by the rules. It's ludicrous! Honestly, just let them play, let the rules officials worry about it, and if it goes un-noticed in the round then the player got away with it. No one calls the NFL after a game to get a holding penalty called on a lineman. This is so retarded!

 

[Golfin303]

And by "y'all" I mean the people that call in. And if it's more than one person, it's the plural "all y'all"!

 

[Ole Gray]

And by "y'all" I mean the people that call in. And if it's more than one person, it's the plural "all y'all"!

Are you sure you are not one of my unaccounted for sons?

 

[jingramgbr]

http://sports.espn.go.com/golf/columns/story?columnist=sobel_jason&id=5999108

Best article on this subject. I could care less if it is a rules violation or not. Someone shouldn't be DQ'ed because someone called in a rules violation and the PGA knew about the call, but waited until this morning to talk to Villegas about it.

"Then, there's that Villegas was DQ'd more than 12 hours after finishing his round. He signed his scorecard, left the course, ate some dinner, went to sleep and woke up without a place in the tournament field.


There needs to be a shorter statute of limitations. I understand the desire to make every decision the correct one, but there has to be a better guideline -- whether that means potential violations can't be reviewed after a player has left the scoring area or the course facilities or after he has gone to bed for the night."--Sobel


If it wasn't noticed in enough time for him to correct his score card to reflect the penalty, then he shouldn't be DQ'ed for other people's mistakes.

 

[jnug]

I also don't like the idea of somebody calling in to "report" an infraction. I am not even sure the PGA rules allow for officials to review tape to make a call. I think they can review tape with a player as a means of justifying the call but I am not clear on the subject of actually making a call from a tape of the telecast. If somebody calls in a tape of the telecast is all the officials are left with at that point right because it was missed when the "infraction" occurred live. If officials are allowed to actually make a call off of tape as opposed to trying to rationalize a call made live, that could open up a huge can of worms. There could easily be instances where a view off tape simply does not tell the whole story. If I were the PGA I would likely have left this one alone for a ton of reasons not the least of which is encouraging more this sort of nonsense.

 

[Smallville]

If it wasn't noticed in enough time for him to correct his score card to reflect the penalty, then he shouldn't be DQ'ed for other people's mistakes.

While I agree that people shouldn't be allowed to influence the result of a tournament by calling in to report a rules violation, it was, in fact, Camilo's mistake, not someone elses.

Also, results change a lot more than the very next day in a lot of sports. Heisman trophies get taken away years later, National Championships lost, etc. What I want to know is how is Villegas reacting to this? Seems like a lot of people are getting more upset about this than he is.

Here's an excerpt from USA Today http://www.usatoday.com/sports/golf/pga/2011-01-07-villegas-dq-tournament-of-champions_N.htm:

"If somebody called something in, I probably did something wrong," he said with a shrug.

Villegas said the violation was clear.

"While it is obviously a disappointing way to start the season, the rules are the rules, and when something like this happens, it's important to me that you're respectful of the game and the people involved," Villegas said in a statement.

 

[jingramgbr]

What I want to know is how is Villegas reacting to this? Seems like a lot of people are getting more upset about this than he is.

Here's an excerpt from USA Today http://www.usatoday.com/sports/golf/pga/2011-01-07-villegas-dq-tournament-of-champions_N.htm:

What else is he going to say? I was wronged? I wouldn't expect him to get mad or handle it any other way. Why does he need to get mad if other people are getting mad for him? It's just like the Dustin Johnson ruling, he didn't have to get mad. Other people handled that for him and he gets to come off as being a reasonable good guy about it. These are smart guys. They know what to say to the media.

 

[Esox]

I'm glad someone called this in, and I'm glad Villegas, however you say it, got DQ'ed. I don't trust him. He's squinty eyed and looks kind of shifty. And what's with all the veins? If these foreigners want to play in our tournaments they should learn the rules. It's our job as the American viewing public to make sure they do.

Kevin

 

[Ole Gray]

I'm glad someone called this in, and I'm glad Villegas, however you say it, got DQ'ed. I don't trust him. He's squinty eyed and looks kind of shifty. And what's with all the veins? If these foreigners want to play in our tournaments they should learn the rules. It's our job as the American viewing public to make sure they do.

Kevin

You got to love Kevin :laughing:..... Kev I really believe it might have been one of those crazy old Cobra fans getting him back for leaving the flock.

Edit: Not this Cobra fan :nono:

 

[rhinogolfer]

In thinking about this, if somebody at home can see a rules violation on TV and call it in, why can't the PGA Tour just have a rules official or tournament official or golf professional at each tournament watch the tv feed? I'm not calling for cameras on every shot but have someone watch the regular feed that John Q. Public is watching and when they see something that could be a violation, alert the powers that be. Most of the volunteers at tournaments are knowledgeable golfers and they would recognize a violation so there shouldn't be any problem with finding a body to sit in front of a TV and watch golf for 6-8 hours a day. Heck, I'll volunteer!

 

[Esox]

I just saw the video of this. He did it on purpose. People have been called cheaters for less.

Kevin

 

[jnug]

I like the idea of somebody there watching the live feed Rhinogolfer. One other thing that puzzles me is where the official was that was walking with this grouping. Did he just not think this was a violation either? Since it was Carmelo's shot it is hard to imagine the official was way gone and hard to find. Did anybody see any comments from the official walking with the group?

I realize that an official watching the live feed is not going to catch everything because that feed will not be everywhere all the time and I am not really concerned about Camilo and whether he gets nailed or not. I just think that people calling in rules violations has implications that the PGA should not want anything to do with. While all golf including Pro Tour play has an honor system there still is no major televised sport that would touch this with a ten foot pole. Can you imagine MLB responding to call-ins regarding balls and strikes, safe or out, touched the bag or didn't, or the same for football or basketball or anything else for that matter. I don't think because of issues of right or wrong in an absolute sense. I just think it is a pandora's box with nothing but trouble inside.

 

[golf4life]

I like the idea of somebody there watching the live feed Rhinogolfer. One other thing that puzzles me is where the official was that was walking with this grouping. Did he just not think this was a violation either? Since it was Carmelo's shot it is hard to imagine the official was way gone and hard to find. Did anybody see any comments from the official walking with the group?

They said because this isn't a major, they don't have officials walking with every group, just scorers.

 

[jnug]

They said because this isn't a major, they don't have officials walking with every group, just scorers.

Maybe that makes having a guy watching the live feed an even better idea. Although I don't wonder if they would not want to reconsider having officials out there with every group as well at least after the cut when you are down to the guys truly playing for the doe-ray-me. Its an expense I know but these guys are playing for so much cash now. Was it Gary Player that made some comment about what he made in his entire career as compared to what a guy can make in a season now. I suppose that part of it is fine if people are happy with it but it does suggest there should be more of an emphasis on having enough officials on hand.

 

[Lynchburg14]

This is so BS. The outside public has no right to have anything to do with the rules in a sporting event. How would you feel if someone called the NFL to let them know that the TV just showed that the player was off-sides so the sack does not count and they need to go back and start that play over. I guess I should start calling MLB and let them know when K-Zone shows that the ump missed the strike. I hope Villegas finds Dave Andrews and whips his A** for calling in. That guy is just jealous that he does not have the game.

 

[Esox]

From what most are saying here, it's okay for a professional golfer to break the rules if he doesn't get caught. What if Villegas was improving his lie and no one saw it but the TV cameras. Should the public be allowed to call in then? What about the announcers? Should they keep quiet? Maybe TV golf would be more exciting if players could break the rules as long as an official or their playing partners don't see them do it?

Kevin

 

[Lynchburg14]

It's not like he was doing it on purpose. But players break the rules in all other sports and no one from the media and the public can do anything about it. Golf needs to learn that too.

 

[Esox]

It's not like he was doing it on purpose. But players break the rules in all other sports and no one from the media and the public can do anything about it. Golf needs to learn that too.

It sure looks like he did it on purpose in the video. He stepped away, glanced up and saw the ball coming back, then walked over and flicked the divot away. I'm not suggesting he knowingly broke the rule, but he broke it nonetheless. Ignorance is no excuse. If he'd known the rules the way a professional golfer should know them, he would have called the penalty on himself, or not flicked the divot, and we wouldn't be having this conversation. The outrage expressed in a lot of these posts about someone calling in a rules violation seems greatly exaggerated to me.

Villegas broke the rule. He should be penalized. Would it be fair if he wasn't and ended up winning more money than other golfers that did not break the rules?

Kevin