Cleveland Smart Sole Wedges

[bobcat]

I dont get it? JB is a low capper, he found the Altitudes to work for him as well as the Smart Sole, how can you say they don't work if you haven't even tried them?

I think the Smart Soles could help a lot of players, (my wife included), but the Smart Soles aren't for me. More sole and bounce than my current Niblick SW is not a good thing for me and I certainly don't need a pure "chipper" like the Smart Sole "C" when I already have a 42* Niblick PW that is great for full shots from the fairway as well.

 

[MWard]

War, Jman or Mward,
All of you have tried or played a Niblick and all of you have tried or played with this wedge. Is there anything that the Niblick is capable of that this is not? I just do not understand and am trying to wrap my evidently puny brain around it. I even put a call into the guy behind these things.

Yes, we did a side by side comparison and you were baffled. There was not a shot either of us could call up that we could not execute with great results. And, results were shown to be better with the smart sole.

Nope, not anything that couldn't be hit with a little ball position and stance change. Don't get me wrong, there is still a small adjustment period needed with any club change, but I don't think it'd be too long with these. You won't lose shot creativity with these, but you might need to go out and figure out what you need to do to pull them off again.

Case in point, I wasn't able to play a short sided bunker shot with these. It's not like I lost the ability, I just didn't figure out what setup and stance made it happen. War, bring that wedge this weekend and I'll see how long it takes for me to figure it out. I bet it's before we even tee off.

 

[bobcat]

Struggling in the sand or not, if they help or make it easier, then why not? They're suited for LOTS of games, if the user LETS them be.

Are you suggesting the Niblick SW isn't just as easy? I prefer a 56* loft over 58* for the SW, and I KNOW the bounce on the 56* Niblick SW is 14*.

(Nobody actually knows what the bounce is on the Smart Sole "S").

 

[Jman]

Are you suggesting the Niblick SW isn't just as easy? (I also prefer 56* loft over 58* for the SW, and I KNOW the bounce on the Niblick SW is 14*. (Nobody knows what the bounce is on the Smart Sole "S").

No. but you've effectively been saying that the SS just simply can't be as easy.

 

[JB]

Are you suggesting the Niblick SW isn't just as easy? I prefer a 56* loft over 58* for the SW, and I KNOW the bounce on the 56* Niblick SW is 14*.

(Nobody actually knows what the bounce is on the Smart Sole "S").

I will openly say that the Smart Sole is easier. Larger club head vertically, more versatile leading edge and better weight placement. I have both, like both and have tested both quite a bit.

 

[bobcat]

No. but you've effectively been saying that the SS just simply can't be as easy.

I never said that! In fact I am quite sure it is actually an easier SW for the beginner or the high handicapper in fluffy sand at least, which is why the SS could be a good option for my wife. However, that doesn't mean The Smart Sole is for everyone or that everyone will be able to benefit from it. Its all about skill level. Keep in mind the the Niblick SW is super-easy from the sand as well and if it ain't broke, don't fix it! Those that can benefit from the Smart Sole SW know who they are...those that don't need or want that kind sole/bounce know that too.

Different strokes for different folks...

 

[bobcat]

I will openly say that the Smart Sole is easier. Larger club head vertically, more versatile leading edge and better weight placement. I have both, like both and have tested both quite a bit.

And the bounce of the Smart Sole "S" is.....??????

 

[JB]

And the bounce of the Smart Sole "S" is.....??????

An arbitrary number that one is basing a debate side on. If I told you it was the same? If I told you it was 1 degree less? If I told you it was 1 degree more? Its an important number when all other factors are looked at. Such as shape, leading edge, swing, grind, etc.

 

[JB]

The Smart Sole S wedge has a bounce of 6*.
This shows how ineffective that number is by itself. How can it be so low when the sole looks so big is the next question...

Because the effective bounce plays a larger role than just the number given as "bounce" that is discussed so much. What Cleveland has done is produce a low bounce wedge, with one of the largest effective bounces they create. It adds to the versatility because while the club does not necessarily open and close like some are used to, the leading edge along with that effective bounce create something that makes it extremely usable from a variety of lies. Yet because of the leading edge one can still use the lower actual bounce number to play the club quite well off of tighter lies and firm and packed sand.

 

[bobcat]

An arbitrary number that one is basing a debate side on. If I told you it was the same? If I told you it was 1 degree less? If I told you it was 1 degree more? Its an important number when all other factors are looked at. Such as shape, leading edge, swing, grind, etc.

So you don't care what it is? Is that your position? The bounce number may be considered somewhat arbirtrary for a wedge like the TaylorMade ATV because you can open/close those particular wedges to vary bounce quite a bit due to the heel and toe relief. However, the Smart Sole must be played square, so the bounce is not variable at all! I therefore would be interested in having Cleveland tell me what the bounce is. Cleveland publishes the bounce number for every wedge the company has ever manufactured so why is the bounce of the Smart Sole such a big secret?

Seems to me the only reason for Cleveland to hide the number unless is that is so high that it might actually scare people off. There is nothing really new about different sole grinds, leading edge beveling or swing variances, so I fail to see why those factors account for Cleveland's failure to disclose the bounce. Do they just assume Super Game Improvement Crowd doesn't understand or care about bounce anyhow??? Only the more accomplished players would care?

 

[JB]

Oh my goodness. Scroll to the next post where all the information is in it. Nobody is hiding anything. As far as what my position is...Making sure people have correct information and doing that through both THP and bringing the members of this site closer to the industry than any place around.

 

[Jman]

The Smart Sole S wedge has a bounce of 6*.
This shows how ineffective that number is by itself. How can it be so low when the sole looks so big is the next question...

Because the effective bounce plays a larger role than just the number given as "bounce" that is discussed so much. What Cleveland has done is produce a low bounce wedge, with one of the largest effective bounces they create. It adds to the versatility because while the club does not necessarily open and close like some are used to, the leading edge along with that effective bounce create something that makes it extremely usable from a variety of lies. Yet because of the leading edge one can still use the lower actual bounce number to play the club quite well off of tighter lies and firm and packed sand.

Hear that?

There went the design is a high bounce wedge ideology right out the ole window.

 

[bobcat]

The Smart Sole S wedge has a bounce of 6*.
This shows how ineffective that number is by itself. How can it be so low when the sole looks so big is the next question...

Because the effective bounce plays a larger role than just the number given as "bounce" that is discussed so much. What Cleveland has done is produce a low bounce wedge, with one of the largest effective bounces they create. It adds to the versatility because while the club does not necessarily open and close like some are used to, the leading edge along with that effective bounce create something that makes it extremely usable from a variety of lies. Yet because of the leading edge one can still use the lower actual bounce number to play the club quite well off of tighter lies and firm and packed sand.

May I ask where you found that SS bounce number and if you believe it to be accurate? That sounds more like what I would have expected the bounce to be on the Smart Sole "C" Wedge, (the chipper). Also, if you had knowledge of the Smart Sole "S" bounce before, why were you initially so reluctant to disclose it?. I guess the next question is the number Clevleand would provide as the "effective bounce" (verses actual bounce), if indeed the former is actually the more relevant bounce number when hitting shots..

 

[Jman]

May I asked where you found that SS bounce number and if you believe it to be accurate? That sounds more like the what I would expect the bounce to be on the Smart Sole "C" Wedge, (the chipper). Also, if you had knowledge of the Smart Sole "S" bounce before, why were you so reluctant to disclose it?. I guess the next question is the number for the "effective bounce" verses the actual bounce if the former is actually more relevant number when hitting shots..

I'm betting it was directly from Cleveland themselves, they tend to like THP.

 

[MWard]

Hear that?

There went the design is a high bounce wedge ideology right out the ole window.

To be honest, I'm even more dumbfounded. I would have never guessed that it was 6 degrees.

 

[JB]

Where did I find it? I asked. We work and speak with these companies (all of them) every single day. However when I googled it, I also came up with this article in the first spot on google where it confirms that number. (its less of an article and more of reciting tech specs)

http://golfweek.com/news/2013/oct/18/cleveland-smart-sole-wedges/

Reluctant to disclose it? I was trying for multiple pages to explain a few things about design. Each time that occurred "something new" came up about the design. Im not sure what the issue is.

I have explained and answered every single question asked and when incorrect info has been posted (and it has been), put correct info in this thread.
I have a feeling if you take the time to go back and read the last few pages of this thread, it will be quite clear.

 

[bobcat]

To be honest, I'm even more dumbfounded. I would have never guessed that it was 6 degrees.

Need to verify the accuracy...sounds more like the bounce of the "C" wedge than the "S" Wedge. I have seen the "S" wedge closeup at a local Retailer and it sure looks like a lot more than 6* to me. Take a look at the pics at the beginning of the thread and not how much trailing edge there is in the pic. (Post #12 in this thread).

 

[JB]

Need to verify the accuracy...sounds more like the bounce of the "C" wedge than the "S" Wedge. I have seen the "S" wedge closeup at a local Retailer and it sure looks like a lot more than 6* to me. Take a look at the pics at the beginning of the thread and not how much trailing edge there is in the pic...

Hahaha. By all means verify away.
We don't put out misinformation of tech specs EVER.

 

[TRyan]

Im sorry but this thread cracks me up. JB isn't going to misinform the consumer, just not what he does. If he lists a tech spec you can take it as factual

 

[MWard]

The article in the link above said 6 degrees. I don't see any reason for David Dusek to lie or mislead on a club's tech specs. I just think it's a great design to give so much forgiveness yet still have a low static bounce so the better player isn't immediately turned off by it.

Sometimes those numbers do more harm than good. If it had 20 degrees of bounce or even negative bounce but made your short game better, would it really matter?

 

[bobcat]

Where did I find it? I asked. We work and speak with these companies (all of them) every single day. However when I googled it, I also came up with this article in the first spot on google where it confirms that number. (its less of an article and more of reciting tech specs)

http://golfweek.com/news/2013/oct/18/cleveland-smart-sole-wedges/

.

Reluctant to disclose it? I was trying for multiple pages to explain a few things about design. Each time that occurred "something new" came up about the design. Im not sure what the issue is.

I have explained and answered every single question asked and when incorrect info has been posted (and it has been), put correct info in this thread.
I have a feeling if you take the time to go back and read the last few pages of this thread, it will be quite clear.

David Dusek is not actually the source, that would be Cleveland's Pat Ripp (Business Solutions Engineer), who is quoted in Dusek's article. Ripp is quoted as saying that the Smart Sole "S" has THE LARGEST EFFECTIVE BOUNCE THAT CLEVELAND HAS MADE, so I guess the 6* bounce number if really accurate, is NOT a bounce number that actually matters when playing shots. The "effective bounce", (which is likely derived by factoring in the ultra-wide sole width), is clearly going to be far greater than 6*...looks closer to 16* to my eye, which would be an effective bounce number consistent with Ripp's statement.

 

[Nate]

Now I want to try these wedges after going through the last 3 pages of this!!

 

[bobcat]

The article in the link above said 6 degrees. I don't see any reason for David Dusek to lie or mislead on a club's tech specs. I just think it's a great design to give so much forgiveness yet still have a low static bounce so the better player isn't immediately turned off by it.

Sometimes those numbers do more harm than good. If it had 20 degrees of bounce or even negative bounce but made your short game better, would it really matter?

Bounce always matters when selecting a wedge...

 

[MWard]

Dude, you're getting into unnecessary semantics and it's flirting with ridiculousness.

Hit the wedge. If you like it, congrats. If you don't, you don't. If the company says it has 6 degrees of bounce at address, then it has 6 degrees of bounce. Whatever you the user decide to do with it to play a certain shot is your business.

 

[majBC]

Interesting discussion, I had my sand wedge from my mashie checked for bounce and surprisingly it is only 11*, but the camber on the bottom of the club is so thick it almost forces you to play it square or hood the club, but it is difficult to open the club especially on tight lies. I think effective bounce is a more useful measure, at least for me. I have been a big fan of the niblicks (the 2010 original version for me), except for the 56* sw. I had trouble from the sand. I am sure it is technique, but the shallow face was my main issue. My home course has some fairly deep green side bunkers, which also play a roll. My best play from the sand is to pick the ball with the niblick 56*