Ethics in the Golf Industry
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Mulli, I don't really see where this would fall into this. I was once an employer and although only ever had a few guys working for me I paid them well and when the time came I gave them raises. I did this even though I struggled at times myself because I felt it was the right thing to do. (And no, if anybody is wondering is not why I eventually gave up the business.) I never felt they were taking advantage of me just because I could have gave them less or just because I could have paid someone else less. I think that would have actually been unethical for me to do that to them. Unless of course my situation became one of no choice. Inflation, cost of living rises and not allowing an employee to have nothing except to barely survive is unethical imo. I don't know how else to answer your question other than to put it in this view which I have.
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you don't think there is a difference in good profitable business vs greediness? and also excessive greed? People do unfairly equate the two and not always correct but that doesn't mean excessive greediness doesn't exist. It does and its huge. You don't think the excessive greed has anything to do with ruining our nation? It does and it does very much so. Just look at whole mortgage crisis. No greed was involved there? No wrongdoing driven by greed? What about the whole bail out? No wrongdoing due to greed was any reason at all any of it had to happen? It didn't bring our nation to its knees?. The concept that profitable business equates to greed isn't always correct but is not what's ruining the nation. What people may think of something isn't ruining the nation. It is the greed and excessive greed itself which does really exist that is helping ruin the nation.
CharlieMoy
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Not to mention the turf crew runs 8+ hours per day, every weekday, and only 3-4 hours per weekend.
I think the marketing of clubs is a bit unethical. Saying your going to gain distance and blah blah blah. Yes, I'm buying the R1 driver, its replacing my Burner SuperFast, but only cause my Burner is old and worn out. But to have companies say that you'll gain 10, 20 even 40 yards is ridiculous. Since high school I always hit my driver 210-220 yards. I do fluke and get 250-260 every once in a blue moon. But after 15 years and 4 different drivers I still hit the same distance. I gain more accuracy, but never gained distance like some of these driver companies claim.
CharlieMoy
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I had a very interesting email exchange with the owner of my home course regarding weekend costs. I need to talk to him more about it. But I'm very intrigued.
CharlieMoy
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In terms of cost vs. profit, during the week most munis lose money. Make it up on the weekends and holidays.
Private club's are much much different, because the more expensive help usually works nights and weekends.
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For whatever reason I've never been able to find it myself. But there is a debate thread here that this post would fit nicely into.
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CharlieMoy
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You have to go into settings and approve your own viewing of the debate room.
For whatever reason I've never been able to find it myself. But there is a debate thread here that this post would fit nicely into.
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CharlieMoy
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rOOKIE :]
Mulligan9111
Go Skers!!
My point is that most people who work for a living, do so for money so that they can buy stuff (whether it's for luxury or necessity). Yet when a business does the same thing, it's considered greed. Businesses have to capitalize on the opportunities to make money when they can, just as employees have to capitalize on the chances to accept raises.
I'm just struggling to understand how a former business owner can feel this way. But as you say, everybody has a right to feel the way they do, and I'm not trying to tell you to feel any other way. I'm just confused is all.
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For whatever reason I've never been able to find it myself. But there is a debate thread here that this post would fit nicely into.
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yea, sorry, didn't want to turn this into an economy debate and still hope it didn't but just responded to a posted statement.
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I don't know how else I can try to explain my view buddy. Its hard sometimes to get things out in writing to be understood the way one intends. Even if you still wouldn't agree there may be more I can say to try to make you at least understand how or why I see something differently. I will start writing too much as usual and people start needing aspirin and a shot of scotch to put up with it..lol. Perhaps one day just possibly we can have some laughs and talk about it over a nice "Black on the rocks" after a round where you kick my butt and maybe I can think of an easyier way to explain my view better.
Mulligan9111
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It's all good man. I thank you for sharing your views and not getting offended when challenged.
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No problem, dude. I was just ribbing you was all.
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Rollin,
This is a genuine question. New course opens up and posts rates of $65 all day every day. Would you struggle with the cost?
What if the new course opens up and posts rates of $65 all day every day, but there is a special. Monday-Thursday tee off between 8am and 2pm and you get 25% off. Would you still struggle with the cost?
I asked my local club about this yesterday evening and their response was our regular rates are our weekend rates ($99 during season). After noon during the week and Tuesday through Thursday they offer 30% off those rates as a "coupon" to try and get people out to play. So if the fixed price is $99 per round, and they offer it for less during the week, wouldn't that make them the complete opposite of greedy?
This is a genuine question. New course opens up and posts rates of $65 all day every day. Would you struggle with the cost?
What if the new course opens up and posts rates of $65 all day every day, but there is a special. Monday-Thursday tee off between 8am and 2pm and you get 25% off. Would you still struggle with the cost?
I asked my local club about this yesterday evening and their response was our regular rates are our weekend rates ($99 during season). After noon during the week and Tuesday through Thursday they offer 30% off those rates as a "coupon" to try and get people out to play. So if the fixed price is $99 per round, and they offer it for less during the week, wouldn't that make them the complete opposite of greedy?
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Firstly $65 per round would cause me to play less than I already can let alone $99 lol. hough not too funny really
. but of course that is simply a decision on individual financial positions. So in that case the discount would help me. But it doesn't do me much good since playing during the week is not an option but that is what it is I understand. . But anyway while it may not be considered greedy, it is imo not so much about "doing us a favor" or practicing the "opposite of greed" with that "discount" as they are really just simply trying to drum up business for themselves when its slow. There is a difference. That's not about you and me. Its not done for you and me. In the end its done for themselves because its slow at those times. "a half loaf of bread is better than none" for the business. A favor or practice of generosity would be more about perhaps a reward back for loyalty and other things like that which is more about a way of saying thank you for your patronage.
But raising prices on weekends is not always about survival. It too often unfortunately is about taking advantage. Weekend price gouging happens all over. some times it may be necessary for a business but a lot of the times (too many) it isn't necessary other than just plain greed.
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Firstly $65 per round would cause me to play less than I already can let alone $99 lol. hough not too funny really
But anyway while it may not be considered greedy, it is imo not so much about "doing us a favor" or practicing the "opposite of greed" with that "discount" as they are really just simply trying to drum up business for themselves when its slow. There is a difference. That's not about you and me. Its not done for you and me. In the end its done for themselves because its slow at those times. "a half loaf of bread is better than none" for the business. A favor or practice of generosity would be more about perhaps a reward back for loyalty and other things like that which is more about a way of saying thank you for your patronage.
But raising prices on weekends is not always about survival. It too often unfortunately is about taking advantage. Weekend price gouging happens all over. some times it may be necessary for a business but a lot of the times (too many) it isn't necessary other than just plain greed.
So based on that simple statement, if the course put up a small sign that said regular price is $65 and during the week we are offering a percentage off you would be fine with it from an ethics standpoint. "Drum up business"? How is that different than pricing higher on the weekend? The post shows that its about the perception because my question still had the cost during the week less than the cost on the weekend. Just that the wording was imply a discount would be given.
Im curious if you have worked at a course or been around a course as a member? The bolded portion makes me think so, and I can say in all the courses I have evver been around, that is just not the case. If not I would say check with your local course and discuss it with them. Taking advantage? I dont understand how reducing the regular price during the week to attract customers is taking advantage. In the end its the exact same thing, just how it is implied. If they give you a discount during the week off the regular price, its still the weekend costing more.
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I still don't understand how taking advantage of crowds is unethical.
double-hoo
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As someone said previously, it's supply and demand.
What we could do, though, is pass a law that says golf courses have to charge the same price at all times. Then the price for weekdays would be higher than what the free market would determine, and the price on weekends will be lower than the price determined by the free market. This will result in the course being used less on weekdays, and the course being used more on weekends, as the supply/demand profile is distorted. There will now be too many players on the weekends, so this will necessarily result in some kind of rationing on the weekends, and the course not being used to full capacity on weekdays. It will also distort (i.e., decrease) the profits of the business, which may eventually result in diversion of the resources to some other more profitable activity (i.e., no more golf course). Sounds wonderful.
The result dictated by the free market (subject to reasonable regulations to deal with monopolies, externalities, etc.) is always better (i.e., more efficient) for your typical business or industry -- and for the consumer -- than what we would achieve when we engage in social engineering to achieve what we think would be "fair" or what would serve some small allegedly-aggrieved segment of consumers. We have seen the negative effects of interfering with the free market for many years in multiple industries, and we keep doing it where there is no reasonable basis to do so. God help us if we equate pricing that is determined by the free market in your typical everyday marketplace or business (not talking about pricing during hurricanes, etc.) as "unethical" or "price-gouging."
What we could do, though, is pass a law that says golf courses have to charge the same price at all times. Then the price for weekdays would be higher than what the free market would determine, and the price on weekends will be lower than the price determined by the free market. This will result in the course being used less on weekdays, and the course being used more on weekends, as the supply/demand profile is distorted. There will now be too many players on the weekends, so this will necessarily result in some kind of rationing on the weekends, and the course not being used to full capacity on weekdays. It will also distort (i.e., decrease) the profits of the business, which may eventually result in diversion of the resources to some other more profitable activity (i.e., no more golf course). Sounds wonderful.
The result dictated by the free market (subject to reasonable regulations to deal with monopolies, externalities, etc.) is always better (i.e., more efficient) for your typical business or industry -- and for the consumer -- than what we would achieve when we engage in social engineering to achieve what we think would be "fair" or what would serve some small allegedly-aggrieved segment of consumers. We have seen the negative effects of interfering with the free market for many years in multiple industries, and we keep doing it where there is no reasonable basis to do so. God help us if we equate pricing that is determined by the free market in your typical everyday marketplace or business (not talking about pricing during hurricanes, etc.) as "unethical" or "price-gouging."
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I do understand what you say and also your view. I wouldn't say you are wrong and I have stated that much of my feelings are a generalization and cant be said at one specific place of business . But what I speak of does go on imo in any given businesses and that may or may not include a golf course. I cannot accuse one specifically of being excessively greedy unless we actually seen just how profitable or not the specific business may be.. There are many businesses that only make profit because they count on the weekend for it. I understand that part too. And I understand that may also be a golf course too.
But for many businesses, weather the need to charge more at prime time is within reason of good ethics or not would remain to be seen. There are many businesses that make good profit and also great profits which is fine and dandy, people do become wealthy from them and that's fine too. But a lot of these very businesses can also still make the handsome profits without also having to further add to it with things that take advantage of the limitations of the masses. That is when imo it becomes excessively greedy and unethical.
It is one thing to be profitable and even very profitable. Nothing wrong with that, it s free country, If one is fortunate enough to do so then by all means they have that right but it is another thing when greed drives it to the point to take advantage. How much is enough and at what cost? and I don't say that as a jealous statement, I say it in relation to when greed causes ones choices to overtake good moral values and senses. Taking advantage of limitations of the masses who for the most part find it hard to pay for enjoyments and simple luxuries that make their families lives more fulfilling is not good ethics if and when there wasn't a need or reason to do it other than greed. Its legal and can be called supply and demand or good practice or whatever but imo can also many times be called unethical.
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- #175
I think I am more confused now than before. Its cool, I think I got my answer. The golf course just needs to change the wording to "30% discount off during the week" and its copasetic.