Ethics in the Golf Industry

[Mulligan9111]

You assume the course is losing money on Monday thru Wednesday.
You assume there is no fixed component to food and beverage costs.
You assume that the course adds significantly more staff on weekends than on weekdays.

I can't make a reasonable response based on so many assumptions.

Have you ever worked at a golf course? If you have, then you would know that these assumptions are not really assumptions. I would say that the vast majority of golf courses have to increase their staff on the weekends. There is always going to be exceptions at the smaller courses, but those are definitely in the minority.

Also regarding losing money Monday thru Wednesday is another thing that happens at a vast majority of courses, again there will be exceptions. Why do you think so many courses hold outside events on Mondays and Wednesdays? These events are held to try and make some money on days that they know the course is going to be slow and losing money.

Food and beverage costs are never fixed. Simple as going to the grocery store from week to week and seeing the change in prices. It's no different for restaurants, golf courses, etc.

 

[blugold]

Great post Stern. It should also be noted that no business has a goal to just break even.

 

[ArmyGolf]

Switching gears a bit here but I find it unethical and rude when I pay full price (for whatever day/time) and get to the first green and it's been aerated + sanded without having been told on the phone when I booked. On a similar note I get right peeved if half the greens are 'closed' during winter play and I wasn't told ahead of time when I booked my tee time.

 

[sternalot]

Great post Stern. It should also be noted that no business has a goal to just break even.

Thank blugold. I was hoping that people might pick up on that detail you just added on their own. ;-)

 

[Mulligan9111]

Great post Stern. It should also be noted that no business has a goal to just break even.

It was a great post. It should also be noted that what Stern was talking about doesn't take into account the effect weather can have and the increased costs involved with that with generally no revenue being generated. There is just so much that goes into the operations of a golf course.

 

[rollin]

rollin': Maybe you should look at it this way. Golf courses have standard greens fees and LOWER them during the week to attract more people. Now when I look at it that way, don't they seem awfully generous to you?

Seems like this is all about perception, and the reality is that golf course operate on such slim margins anyway. We should be happy that anyone wants to choose such a crappy business to support our hobby.

So you would honestly feel better, if the course just raised all the rates for the entire week to the weekend rate so it did not appear as though you were getting ripped off paying more on the weekend? Seems like a rather rough business model to me personally.

hahaha. But in a way JB just maybe. But who says if the cost were to be the same every day that it must be at the higher rate? Why wouldnt it just be a happy medium where they bring in the same money when all said and done?

A discount during the week is all about perception the other way too. One can argue that they make you feel as though you can get a break during the week like its a favor but when in reality they are simply squeezing more from you when they know its most likely the time you can come.

There are golf course and businesses that need to do this to survive . That then i can understand and cannot include in this conversation. But very many who do it for the greed.

 

[Mulligan9111]

hahaha. But in a way JB just maybe. But who says if the cost were to be the same every day that it must be at the higher rate? Why wouldnt it just be a happy medium where they bring in the same money when all said and done?

A discount during the week is all about perception the other way too. One can argue that they make you feel as though you can get a break during the week like its a favor but when in reality they are simply squeezing more from you when they know its most likely the time you can come.

There are golf course and businesses that need to do this to survive . That then i can understand and cannot include in this conversation. But very many who do it for the greed.

How can they bring in the same amount of money when there is a limit to the amount of customers they can serve?

Also, why do you work at the job you work at? Isn't it for money? So do you work there for greed as well? What makes your greed any different than the golf courses greed?

I'm so baffled by this type of thinking.

 

[SharkHat]

hahaha. But in a way JB just maybe. But who says if the cost were to be the same every day that it must be at the higher rate? Why wouldnt it just be a happy medium where they bring in the same money when all said and done?

A discount during the week is all about perception the other way too. One can argue that they make you feel as though you can get a break during the week like its a favor but when in reality they are simply squeezing more from you when they know its most likely the time you can come.

There are golf course and businesses that need to do this to survive . That then i can understand and cannot include in this conversation. But very many who do it for the greed.

I'm still not making the connection to how they're "squeezing" customers. I would hope that players know the rate before they book their time, so they've made the conscious decision to pay the rate asked.

Unless those players are being forced to golf, there is no squeezing involved. Not liking the rate doesn't make it unethical.

 

[rollin]

Switching gears a bit here but I find it unethical and rude when I pay full price (for whatever day/time) and get to the first green and it's been aerated + sanded without having been told on the phone when I booked. On a similar note I get right peeved if half the greens are 'closed' during winter play and I wasn't told ahead of time when I booked my tee time.

yea those are good ones i'll hear of. Is disapointing and bit of bummer if that happens.

 

[sternalot]

In the name of ethics, I think my rounds/year figure was a bit low.

http://golfweek.com/news/2010/may/10/public-golf-courses-survival-fittest/

At 35,000 rounds per year, break even is still $42.86/round.

 

[ArmyGolf]

I'm sorry but if you think that a course charging more during peak demand is unethical you are sorely mistaken. Perhaps your boss should pay you the bare minimum for you and your family to survive as well? Bread and water it is.
Golf courses are in business to make money. They are not a non-profit or a charity.

 

[JB]

You assume the course is losing money on Monday thru Wednesday.
You assume there is no fixed component to food and beverage costs.
You assume that the course adds significantly more staff on weekends than on weekdays.

I can't make a reasonable response based on so many assumptions.

Its not an assumption. I'm not sure you have ever worked at a course before or been a member at a club but much of this is pretty common knowledge. Heck half the private courses in FL do not even allow play on Monday yet still have staff there.

hahaha. But in a way JB just maybe. But who says if the cost were to be the same every day that it must be at the higher rate? Why wouldnt it just be a happy medium where they bring in the same money when all said and done?

A discount during the week is all about perception the other way too. One can argue that they make you feel as though you can get a break during the week like its a favor but when in reality they are simply squeezing more from you when they know its most likely the time you can come.

There are golf course and businesses that need to do this to survive . That then i can understand and cannot include in this conversation. But very many who do it for the greed.

So really in this situation there is no win for the course. If they charge the same rate all week it could be considered too high. If they charge less during the week as a "discount" its considered overcharging on weekends.

 

[rollin]

I'm still not making the connection to how they're "squeezing" customers. I would hope that players know the rate before they book their time, so they've made the conscious decision to pay the rate asked.

Unless those players are being forced to golf, there is no squeezing involved. Not liking the rate doesn't make it unethical.

to use a different example i used before. You want to take your kids to the beach or perhaps an amusement park, whatever. You and the fam can only go on sunday. Its a luxury, you dont have to go and you know what it costs. The whole day is expensive to begin with. You know then that is going to be even more expensive than if you went on a tuesday or whatver. But the sunday is the only day you and the fam can go.

You then dont feel like your are being squeezed? Sort of being punished because thats the only day you guys can go? They know you (like so many others) are limited to that time frame and are going to take advantage of that.

This is just the way of life for us I know. But something that never sat well with me. If none of that bothers anyone else I would be suprised. Aparently it doesnt at least on here. I just think in many cases its wrong.

 

[blugold]

but why is it anybody's fault that you are only available to go on Sunday? Why should a business have to willfully give up profit? Why? I have yet to see that answered.

 

[Tadashi70]

Is leaving a driver in a tree an infraction? :shock:

Naa, that's for another thread

On the industry side..yes..in my mind but others my disagree.
Price fixing.

tappin from my big as note2

you explained your stance but I had already quoted you

I don't know if it would fit the "unethical" bill, but I feel like PGA Value Guide Trade In Values (as well as individual company values, like PGA SS and Golfsmith, which doesn't use value guide) are seriously under what the club is really worth. I've seen clubs at Golfsmith that had a Trade In Value of $7 (yes, seven) being sold used for upwards of $100. I don't begrudge the right of anyone to make a profit, but that is ridiculous.

Why would you sell something for $7? You don't have to sell to them.

I agree. Golf OEM marketing is similar to the products you see in GNC. If the distance claims were true everyone would be hitting their drive 300 in the fairway ?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

this argument always makes me giggle. If you hit 230 off the tee a claim of 17 yards will give 247 off the tee on a near perfect swing.
The problem isn't the claims the OEMs are making its the claims the average golfer is making about their distance. The claims club companies make are true for small percentage of golfers. But we have been programmed to think we are all in that category by our own inflated numbers

How about price gouging. Why should it cost more to golf on the weekend? I know it goes on in every industry with just about anything we do prime time but still doesnt make it right imo.
You can come up with resons to justify it but bottom line its price gouging imo. not ethical

not sir this gouging. More folks golf on the weekend and its a chance for the course to catch up from a lack luster week.

I always just thought it was cheaper during the week to attract more people.

bingo

I wouldn't call myself a golf officionado exactly. But I've played tons of courses in about 6 different states now and I've never noticed an increase in anything on the weekends, anywhere, not even at resort courses. Staffing has always been pretty constant. Maybe an extra cart girl, but that's about it.

I see it as the courses right to charge what they want, when they want. I don't see it as unethical. It's supply and demand. But I just don't see that as being a good excuse for them doing it.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk 4

Not sure where you are playing but every course I have ever played always has higher fees on tr weekends. Unless you go through a golf now type site.

 

[Mulligan9111]

to use a different example i used before. You want to take your kids to the beach or perhaps an amusement park, whatever. You and the fam can only go on sunday. Its a luxury, you dont have to go and you know what it costs. The whole day is expensive to begin with. You know then that is going to be even more expensive than if you went on a tuesday or whatver. But the sunday is the only day you and the fam can go.

You then dont feel like your are being squeezed? Sort of being punished because thats the only day you guys can go? They know you (like so many others) are limited to that time frame and are going to take advantage of that.

This is just the way of life for us I know. But something that never sat well with me. If none of that bothers anyone else I would be suprised. Aparently it doesnt at least on here. I just think in many cases its wrong.

They are taking advantage of the busiest times. That's not squeezing the customer, the customer can still come back during the week at a reduced rate. Again, it's not the amusement parks problem that the only time you can go is on Sunday.

 

[SharkHat]

to use a different example i used before. You want to take your kids to the beach or perhaps an amusement park, whatever. You and the fam can only go on sunday. Its a luxury, you dont have to go and you know what it costs. The whole day is expensive to begin with. You know then that is going to be even more expensive than if you went on a tuesday or whatver. But the sunday is the only day you and the fam can go.

You then dont feel like your are being squeezed? Sort of being punished because thats the only day you guys can go? They know you (like so many others) are limited to that time frame and are going to take advantage of that.

This is just the way of life for us I know. But something that never sat well with me. If none of that bothers anyone else I would be suprised. Aparently it doesnt at least on here. I just think in many cases its wrong.

No, I don't feel like I'm being squeezed. And I also don't think that they know that it's the only time I come. Their Sunday rate is their Sunday rate. If I know that rate in advance, then there is no ethical problem, only a value based decision on my part.

An ethical dilemma would be them publishing a Sunday rate and then up charging at the gate.

 

[Golf Ghost]

hahaha. But in a way JB just maybe. But who says if the cost were to be the same every day that it must be at the higher rate? Why wouldnt it just be a happy medium where they bring in the same money when all said and done?

A discount during the week is all about perception the other way too. One can argue that they make you feel as though you can get a break during the week like its a favor but when in reality they are simply squeezing more from you when they know its most likely the time you can come.

There are golf course and businesses that need to do this to survive . That then i can understand and cannot include in this conversation. But very many who do it for the greed.

or to generate profit? I don't understand. They are a business, no different than Apple or Mercedes, both of whom try to generate as much profit as possible.

 

[sternalot]

to use a different example i used before. You want to take your kids to the beach or perhaps an amusement park, whatever. You and the fam can only go on sunday. Its a luxury, you dont have to go and you know what it costs. The whole day is expensive to begin with. You know then that is going to be even more expensive than if you went on a tuesday or whatver. But the sunday is the only day you and the fam can go.

You then dont feel like your are being squeezed? Sort of being punished because thats the only day you guys can go? They know you (like so many others) are limited to that time frame and are going to take advantage of that.

This is just the way of life for us I know. But something that never sat well with me. If none of that bothers anyone else I would be suprised. Aparently it doesnt at least on here. I just think in many cases its wrong.

I don't feel squeezed, but that is because we both have different assumptions. You ASSUME they are doing it to take advantage of you. I ASSUME they are doing it because that is the only time they can make money. Again, I think this one "ethical" question comes down to perception not the actual moral capacity of whatever business we are talking about.

 

[MWard]

to use a different example i used before. You want to take your kids to the beach or perhaps an amusement park, whatever. You and the fam can only go on sunday. Its a luxury, you dont have to go and you know what it costs. The whole day is expensive to begin with. You know then that is going to be even more expensive than if you went on a tuesday or whatver. But the sunday is the only day you and the fam can go.

You then dont feel like your are being squeezed? Sort of being punished because thats the only day you guys can go? They know you (like so many others) are limited to that time frame and are going to take advantage of that.

This is just the way of life for us I know. But something that never sat well with me. If none of that bothers anyone else I would be suprised. Aparently it doesnt at least on here. I just think in many cases its wrong.

It's been this way for hundreds of years. It's supply and demand, not price gouging.

 

[sternalot]

How about the in store putting greens that some retailers use that have grooves under the surface running to the cups. Think its a coincidence that those new putters you try out in the store seem to "can't miss"? But its a different story out on the course. That and jacked up simulators are definitely unethical in my opinion.

I feel like this comment got lost in the discussion. Is there any truth to this? This is probably the most morally damning as anything I have seen posted in this thread.

 

[DevRickus]

I feel like this comment got lost in the discussion. Is there any truth to this? This is probably the most morally damning as anything I have seen posted in this thread.

I dont know for certain but I have heard this before and I have had my suspicions but I have no proof.

 

[Hawk]

rollin, I want some of what you're smoking dude. You never stop thinking up crazy things to talk about!

That was said in friendly way, btw

 

[blugold]

I dont know for certain but I have heard this before and I have had my suspicions but I have no proof.

I think it would be super suspicious if a ball just took a hard turn towards a hole. It might show poorly on that golf store

 

[fupresti]

I'm sorry but if you think that a course charging more during peak demand is unethical you are sorely mistaken. Perhaps your boss should pay you the bare minimum for you and your family to survive as well? Bread and water it is.
Golf courses are in business to make money. They are not a non-profit or a charity.

Agreed. But I guess those who don't understand also complain about ladies night at the bar and early bird specials before the dinner rush at restaurants.