Hanging It Up

[wubears71]

Not sure where you got this. Golf courses have never "broken even." If that were the case, they would all just close their doors.

We are using pre vs. post Covid as a way of comparing how much the cost of golf has increased. Of course there's math in economics.

No one is asking to pay pre-Covid prices. The industry has just exploded past any stretch of being reasonable in my area.

If it would meld you feel better, I’ll find the source. Several of us were looking at investing in a golf course but the market in the late 2010s. We discovered that the market was saturated and extremely difficult to operate in the black at the prices golf courses were charging. The demand was just not there. Golf courses were closing all over the country because it’s a tough business to make money in.


So yes, I am a bit of an expert in this area and have seen the data to prove it. Despite what some think, the golf course owners are not out there swimming in money looking at new ways to screw over Average Joe Golfer. In fact, our good family friend recently sold his course to a national private course company similar to ClubCorp. He was thrilled because there were more years that they lost money than made Money. The only reason they were able to stay around as long as they did was the great event business they did. The course lost money and catering/events paid the overhead.

 

[aloha_from_bradley]

My current setup if i wanted to buy new. That's just what they cost these days.

View attachment 9242738

Yeah, my buddy picked up the same driver with a different shaft. It was near $1200. Of course he used his old club as a trade in, but they give you literal lint balls for old equipment, so it doesn't "offset" the cost as others have stated.

 

[JB]

So yes, I am a bit of an expert in this area and have seen the data to prove it. Despite what some think, the golf course owners are not out there swimming in money looking at new ways to screw over Average Joe Golfer. In fact, our good family friend recently sold his course to a national private course company similar to ClubCorp. He was thrilled because there were more years that they lost money than made Money. The only reason they were able to stay around as long as they did was the great event business they did. The course lost money and catering/events paid the overhead.

You are correct here.

 

[GolfFest]

If it would meld you feel better, I’ll find the source. Several of us were looking at investing in a golf course but the market in the late 2010s. We discovered that the market was saturated and extremely difficult to operate in the black at the prices golf courses were charging. The demand was just not there. Golf courses were closing all over the country because it’s a tough business to make money in.


So yes, I am a bit of an expert in this area and have seen the data to prove it. Despite what some think, the golf course owners are not out there swimming in money looking at new ways to screw over Average Joe Golfer. In fact, our good family friend recently sold his course to a national private course company similar to ClubCorp. He was thrilled because there were more years that they lost money than made Money. The only reason they were able to stay around as long as they did was the great event business they did. The course lost money and catering/events paid the overhead.

I worked with a guy pre covid, his family ran a chain of hotels and also owned a local golf course. He told me if you want to make money, don’t buy a golf course.

 

[aloha_from_bradley]

If it would meld you feel better, I’ll find the source. Several of us were looking at investing in a golf course but the market in the late 2010s. We discovered that the market was saturated and extremely difficult to operate in the black at the prices golf courses were charging. The demand was just not there. Golf courses were closing all over the country because it’s a tough business to make money in.


So yes, I am a bit of an expert in this area and have seen the data to prove it. Despite what some think, the golf course owners are not out there swimming in money looking at new ways to screw over Average Joe Golfer. In fact, our good family friend recently sold his course to a national private course company similar to ClubCorp. He was thrilled because there were more years that they lost money than made Money. The only reason they were able to stay around as long as they did was the great event business they did. The course lost money and catering/events paid the overhead.

I'm not arguing that some courses do better than others, and I'm not saying these guys are swimming in money (although some are). Of course it's a tough industry.

If it was THAT bad, many more courses would have closed down. They have to pay their people. Do people want to get paid more, sure, but there are other industries.

The golf industry is 100% taking advantage of people at this point. Maybe it will reach a tipping point... maybe not. When a round costs more than a new premium golf bag, you know there is a problem.

 

[Canadan]

My current setup if i wanted to buy new. That's just what they cost these days.

View attachment 9242738

Meh, I'm not sold on this.

If it's "your" setup you can just pull cog and replace on the 600 dollar Ai Smoke... and have a fancy new Denali to mess with as well.

 

[GoldenBuff]

The neat thing about golf is that it can be a lifelong activity for many. We can all dial up or down our golf lives over time as needed or desired. There is no judgement. We all get to live our lives.

As to the significant increase in people who golf, we see the impacts here too. Private courses have waiting lists, and scheduling rounds at the public courses is far more challenging. I also notice the lack of golf etiquette among many, which can be impactful. We are additionally seeing a big increase in in-door golf. Not long ago, we had zero in-door golf options. Now we have 2 local businesses, each with 3 hitting bays. And many of the courses now offer in-door golf in the winter as well. These in-door golf resources are all packed with golfers.

 

[Canadan]

Yeah, my buddy picked up the same driver with a different shaft. It was near $1200. Of course he used his old club as a trade in, but they give you literal lint balls for old equipment, so it doesn't "offset" the cost as others have stated.

This is all 100% a choice though.

Paradym, which is an excellent driver, can be had for 341 dollars today like new on CPO. With plenty of shaft options. Most of these places offer solid 50% bonus trade value at the right times of the year, if you're not willing to sell the club on the various resale locations like eBay or facebook groups etc who are all eager to buy.

I think there's a difference between buying full price component builds from fitters (which works for many people) and buying golf on a budget. Putting a blanket over the entire experience is incredibly unfair.

 

[Canadan]

I will totally agree on the idea that many courses are charging as much as they can while they can. I've also heard that costs are skyrocketing in the industry making maintenance and upkeep even more challenging for courses around the country.

It's a vicious cycle, and it lands on us. Sadly, the sheets keep filling, and until they don't, it won't change.

That's why I have a membership (which just went up again). The fee is sunk, and I deal with it, and I love the game enough to make that concession.

 

[Sean]

Your club is a great deal. You seem to get your money's worth and then some.

Reading this thread has made me realize that I'm fortunate to play golf in an area where greens' fees and memberships for the most part remain extremely reasonable. I don't know how much golf I would be playing if I had to pay some of those prices that the OP listed in one of his posts.

You're right, I definitely get my money's worth. The year before Covid I tallied what I paid per round and it came to $4.61. Also included in the monthly dues are a gym, heated bays, grass range (both with Top Tracer Range), a 9 hole short course, grass pitching range, and practice greens. No food or drink minimum either.

I have family in Northeast Tennessee and in that area golf is still very reasonably priced. I guess it depends what part of the country you live in.

 

[oumagic]

I do feel for the OP. I don't play near as much golf as I would like. PHX area has just gotten crazy expensive. The goat tracks charging $75+ and having full tee sheets is mind-boggling. My pay just has not increased enough to cover the extra costs. I am not quitting by any means, I just am playing less rounds. I have looked at memberships to help manage costs, but man, private memberships are out of my ballpark in PHX.

I did buy the PHX city card to play municipal courses at a discount, but they are always full and the good ones are still expensive. Papago is $166 today at 12:24 tee time. GCU is $99 at 12:42PM.

 

[collegefbfan]

I have just started out, and I know golf is a game that I really can't afford on the regular. I am a middle school teacher and barely make $65,000/yr (and I am in my 26th year). Me and the wife together do great (she is the breadwinner), but I know I will never be able to keep up with being a regular golfer. Not joining a country club because #1 not in the budget with our son just starting to drive and his college coming up in 1.5 years. Reason #2 is the weather. I swear it never stops raining here or feels that way. And then it is pretty during the week and rains on the weekend. I know many will laugh about this: I am interested in the sport, and it has always intrigued me like the unsolvable puzzle. I am mainly interested in getting a good swing down, hitting the ball straight, and doing good/great at the range and the restaurant/simulator we have here in town. If I am invited to play golf with someone, I will take them up on that offer. Someone replied to the original poster about an indoor setup. I am headed in that direction for my retirement (only 5 years left). I think the indoor setup is the best idea ever. I love the ones posted in THP forums.

 

[aloha_from_bradley]

This is all 100% a choice though.

Paradym, which is an excellent driver, can be had for 341 dollars today like new on CPO. With plenty of shaft options. Most of these places offer solid 50% bonus trade value at the right times of the year, if you're not willing to sell the club on the various resale locations like eBay or facebook groups etc who are all eager to buy.

I think there's a difference between buying full price component builds from fitters (which works for many people) and buying golf on a budget. Putting a blanket over the entire experience is incredibly unfair.

What's unfair is charging these prices to begin with. Of course we have choices, with everything.

The main point seems to be resonating with the majority. Golf is too expensive, and the industry is capitalizing on the opportunity by taking advantage of every corner of the market, from green fees to equipment. I've gone my whole life being able to afford decent equipment while playing about as often as I'd like. Maybe not at a private club, but at least I could get out and swing the sticks. That's just not the case anymore. This includes when I was just starting my career and made **** money.

I said it already once, when a round of golf costs more than a premium golf bag, there's an issue. Of course not all clubs charge this kind of money, but the worst courses in Phoenix are asking $75-$100. It's literal robbery any way you put it, and I'm not sticking around for it. Like I said in my original post, golf will be an occasional recreational activity at a much more casual pace moving forward.

 

[Canadan]

What's unfair is charging these prices to begin with. Of course we have choices, with everything.

The main point seems to be resonating with the majority. Golf is too expensive, and the industry is capitalizing on the opportunity by taking advantage of every corner of the market, from green fees to equipment. I've gone my whole life being able to afford decent equipment while playing about as often as I'd like. Maybe not at a private club, but at least I could get out and swing the sticks. That's just not the case anymore. This includes when I was just starting my career and made **** money.

I said it already once, when a round of golf costs more than a premium golf bag, there's an issue. Of course not all clubs charge this kind of money, but the worst courses in Phoenix are asking $75-$100. It's literal robbery any way you put it, and I'm not sticking around for it. Like I said in my original post, golf will be an occasional recreational activity at a much more casual pace moving forward.

Your entire response seems to be around the price of golf to play, which I agree it is expensive.

My response you're quoting is to the claims that 1,200 driver is a normalized price. It is not. It is a choice.

 

[collegefbfan]

What's unfair is charging these prices to begin with. Of course we have choices, with everything.

The main point seems to be resonating with the majority. Golf is too expensive, and the industry is capitalizing on the opportunity by taking advantage of every corner of the market, from green fees to equipment. I've gone my whole life being able to afford decent equipment while playing about as often as I'd like. Maybe not at a private club, but at least I could get out and swing the sticks. That's just not the case anymore. This includes when I was just starting my career and made **** money.

I said it already once, when a round of golf costs more than a premium golf bag, there's an issue. Of course not all clubs charge this kind of money, but the worst courses in Phoenix are asking $75-$100. It's literal robbery any way you put it, and I'm not sticking around for it. Like I said in my original post, golf will be an occasional recreational activity at a much more casual pace moving forward.

This is definitely true. It just doesn't add up. And man, forget about the drinks/beers/etc. to go along with that round.

 

[echico]

What's unfair is charging these prices to begin with. Of course we have choices, with everything.

The main point seems to be resonating with the majority. Golf is too expensive, and the industry is capitalizing on the opportunity by taking advantage of every corner of the market, from green fees to equipment. I've gone my whole life being able to afford decent equipment while playing about as often as I'd like. Maybe not at a private club, but at least I could get out and swing the sticks. That's just not the case anymore. This includes when I was just starting my career and made **** money.

I said it already once, when a round of golf costs more than a premium golf bag, there's an issue. Of course not all clubs charge this kind of money, but the worst courses in Phoenix are asking $75-$100. It's literal robbery any way you put it, and I'm not sticking around for it. Like I said in my original post, golf will be an occasional recreational activity at a much more casual pace moving forward.

Here is where I will disagree with you. If a subset of courses decided to but their prices in half you would never get a tee time. That course would get destroyed from all the play so then they have to go in and do a lot of extra maintenance, which costs money. They can't keep themselves open. Some of the raise in rates is seasonal, some is increased costs of everything, some is to keep conditions where the public expects them to be. There is a lot that goes into the price other than supply and demand.

 

[TxAggie2018]

What's a round of golf cost around Phoenix these days? In San Diego, a weekend green fee at a goat track is about $60, and a more upscale muni is around $100. And that's in a densely populated desert with intense pressure on land and water.

 

[aloha_from_bradley]

Your entire response seems to be around the price of golf to play, which I agree it is expensive.

My response you're quoting is to the claims that 1,200 driver is a normalized price. It is not. It is a choice.

Just a couple years ago TaylorMade offered about 50+ different shafts if you were to pick up a new driver. The majority of them were a free upgrade. Drivers on average were about $499, which was already too much.

Equipment costs too much.

 

[aloha_from_bradley]

What's a round of golf cost around Phoenix these days? In San Diego, a weekend green fee at a goat track is about $60, and a more upscale muni is around $100. And that's in a place with as intense of pressure on land and water as anywhere I can think of.

I posted some examples from GolfNow a couple pages back. They were for next weekend.

 

[Canadan]

Just a couple years ago TaylorMade offered about 50+ different shafts if you were to pick up a new driver. The majority of them were a free upgrade. Drivers on average were about $499, which was already too much.

Equipment costs too much.

A stock Ai Smoke is 600 dollars, with more than enough shaft options.

Wanting a 350 dollar shaft at no upcharge is as unrealistic today was it was back then wanting the fancy AD-Di Orange.

Everything costs more. 100 dollars as an increase to a driver is nothing compared to the rise in other costs. I am ALL for being critical on pricing, but this is not a good example.

 

[frontTsociety]

Here is where I will disagree with you. If a subset of courses decided to but their prices in half you would never get a tee time. That course would get destroyed from all the play so then they have to go in and do a lot of extra maintenance, which costs money. They can't keep themselves open. Some of the raise in rates is seasonal, some is increased costs of everything, some is to keep conditions where the public expects them to be. There is a lot that goes into the price other than supply and demand.

Like . The “perfect” price for a round of golf is one that keeps your tee sheet at about 80% full IMO. Too expensive, and you’re out of business, too cheapest, and your course gets hacked up from overplay. Finding that perfect price is a chore though.

 

[aloha_from_bradley]

Here is where I will disagree with you. If a subset of courses decided to but their prices in half you would never get a tee time. That course would get destroyed from all the play so then they have to go in and do a lot of extra maintenance, which costs money. They can't keep themselves open. Some of the raise in rates is seasonal, some is increased costs of everything, some is to keep conditions where the public expects them to be. There is a lot that goes into the price other than supply and demand.

It depends on what's driving the price up. Of course economics determine the price.

Vacationing / retired snowbirds, corporate events, visitors for golf tourney or other events, etc. They are the ones bringing in the money. Us locals are the ones who get the **** end of the stick. No tee times and exorbitant pricing. Again, many have chimed in with a common theme.

 

[WICHITAREJECT]

How to make a million on a golf course??








Start with 2 million!

 

[JB]

Just a couple years ago TaylorMade offered about 50+ different shafts if you were to pick up a new driver. The majority of them were a free upgrade. Drivers on average were about $499, which was already too much.

Equipment costs too much.

Materials cost more money
Wages to create those materials cost more money
Wages to assemble those materials cost more money
Shipping of those materials cost more money

While I understand the crunch of economy, the cost of goods overall has increased a lot in the last three years due to these things.
The good news is there are alternatives with pre owned sites, one year old products that are brand new, etc.

 

[oumagic]

What's a round of golf cost around Phoenix these days? In San Diego, a weekend green fee at a goat track is about $60, and a more upscale muni is around $100. And that's in a densely populated desert with intense pressure on land and water.

Our upscale muni (Papago) is $166 after noon today. Weekend green fees right now are $100 goat track and close to $200 or more for good courses.

This is the peak season.