MLB Hall of Fame and the Steroid Era

[War Eagle]

From 98-2006 or maybe 2007 he was really really good. He was an accumulator near the end. Im not sure he is a HOF personally, but he was close. The biggest thing with Jones is there have long been rumors of PEDs by some. His arrest for domestic abuse. He was virtually done by the age of 30.

As good as he was, he was an absolute liability at the end of his career.

 

[JB]

View attachment 9200170
I'm not on either side of the Bonds saga, however, every time I hear or read about how it was never proven blah, blah, I think of these pictures.

I wouldnt look up the pictures of Tiger Woods from rookie year to dominating then

 

[DiscipleofPenick]

Is Andruw Jones a HOFer? I'm very biased so interested in non-Braves fan opinions. He is the greatest defensive center fielder I've ever seen and regarded by most as the 2nd best all time to Willie Mays, which is quite the compliment.

.254
434 HR
1,289 RBI
152 SB
10x Gold Glove (consecutive)
5x All Star
62.7 WAR

Braves postseason legend hitting 2 HR in a World Series game at the age of 19 (although they lost).. nothing to do with HOF qualification but still cool

I think Andruw falls short of the hall. I know advanced stats love him, but there are major problems with defensive metrics. Plus statcast only has been around for less than 10 years, so how exactly do they go back and get accurate numbers for everyone who played before. Though I saw him play plenty and yea he passes the eye test, so I don't doubt that he had skills. But I feel that's all he's got are the GGs and the HRs. Never factored into MVP votes, career nose-dived after leaving ATL, and never really leading the league in anything (other than his 2005 HR/RBI crown). I'd take Torii Hunter over Jones.

 

[Par5zN2]

I wouldnt look up the pictures of Tiger Woods from rookie year to dominating then

LOL, the PGA is another story, Tiger and DJ are perfect examples. Oh, then there's the NBA and MJ story. Compared to MLB these are smaller casts and taboo finger pointing.

 

[blugold]

View attachment 9200170
I'm not on either side of the Bonds saga, however, every time I hear or read about how it was never proven blah, blah, I think of these pictures.

While, yes he did do steroids.

What do the pictures look like of you from 19 years old to 40?

 

[Bernoulli]

Regardless of any connection, actual or suspected, with steroids or HGH, any deserving player should be in. Judge them by their numbers and performance on the field.

 

[AndersonRains]

Never factored into MVP votes, career nose-dived after leaving ATL, and never really leading the league in anything (other than his 2005 HR/RBI crown).

He finished 2nd in MVP voting just behind Pujols in 2005...? Not to mention he received votes 4 other times including a top 10 finish in 2000

I'd take Torii Hunter over Jones.

 

[brians]

Do you think these players should be in?
Some are, some aren't, including Griffey, Jeter, Rivera (first ever unanimous). Some that have used have gotten in including Big Papi.
Yet some of the greats, are still left off. And more importantly, in the HOF, its about numbers and how many are distorted from this period.

Where do you stand?

They should be in. No question. Label their era accordingly.
It’s just another era. Pre integration, dead ball, expansion, juiced ball-(really the main cause of steroid era numbers btw).

it was a great time to be a baseball fan. Instead of worrying about records that are tainted, I use the hall as a celebration of the history of the game.

 

[Bernoulli]

This is a topic I'm oddly passionate about and a hill I will die on forever. At this point I think the MLB hall of fame is a completely broken concept and just needs torn down and restarted.

The writers have been historically bad at electing players. Even in the first ballot, no one was unanimous. I think about that a lot. The writers founded this institution, decided who gets to vote, who is eligible, and guys like Ty Cobb and Babe Ruth were not 100% selections. Which then started the whole "if Babe Ruth didn't get 100% , then no one should" stupidity we've dealt with forever. Then in the 1950s Joe DiMaggio didn't get elected on the first ballot and we had to deal with 'if DiMaggio isn't a first ballot guy, then no one is" mentality. The writers also used to have a saying - "If I have to think about it, the answer is no" for those who are worthy.

Then there was the train wreck that was the 2013 ballot. On what could've been the greatest hall class ever, no one got elected in a sham protest vote. No less than 8 players on that ballot - Bonds, Clemens, Piazza, Sosa, Schilling, Biggio, Kenny Lofton, and David Wells had strong arguments to be inducted into the hall. I would consider at least 4 of those names to be slam dunk candidates. We've had to deal with an overstuffed ballot ever since. The writers have essentially invalidated an entire generation of players by refusing to elect anyone (but David Ortiz) even closly related to PED use, held back candidates for years that were even suspected, and even the clean players still get a mark because they played in you know, that era.

The Veterans committee is also a failure. It had generally just been a tool for the already enshrined players to elect their buddies. Go look up the Frankie Frisch All-Stars. Basically every HoFer you've never heard of that was elected in the 1950s through early 70s was the responsibility of this guy. It was essentially the same thing in 2019 when we saw Harold Baines get elected. The committee that elected him contained the GM that drafted him, two GMs that signed/traded for him, two former managers, and at least one teammate. He just had the numbers. Add to the politics, the fact that now the veterans committees are tasked with correcting the oversight of the writers, and they are an ill constructed and overwhelmed body.

I would like to see a much more inclusive Hall, with a tiered structure. And yes, Pete Rose should be in the hall of fame. As this is getting long, I'm going to close with a list of juiced era players I think belong in the hall. And I love talking baseball and will talk about anyone or anything with the game. You can @ at me all day and I'll talk.

C - Jorge Posada
1B: McGwire, Helton, Palmeiro, Giambi, Delgado, Mattingly, Andres Galarraga
2B: Lou Whitaker
3B: Matt Williams (Scott Rolen is not a HoFer)
SS: Garciaparra
LF: Bonds, Manny, Albert Belle
CF: Dale Murphy, Jim Edmonds, Bernie Williams, Kenny Lofton
RF: Sosa, Canseco, Juan Gonzalez, Sheffield
SP: Clemens, Kevin Brown, David Cone, Doc Gooden, Schilling, Saberhagen, Hershiser
CP: Billy Wagner, Quisenberry, John Franco

As long as the writers and veterans' committee are the pathways to induction, things will likely not change. I'm in agreement with you that it should be more inclusive.

 

[JimMLINY]

When Shoeless Joe Jackson gets admitted then yes to all of the above!

 

[brians]

So he does not get in as a coach.. Which does not seem like he would have anyway. But dang, it is really hard to argue not being in as a player when Big Papi is in? In sports the baseball hall of fame is the ultimate popularity contest.

It’s not as if Rose’s name is banned from the hall. He just doesn’t get a plaque because there’s literally only one thing one can do and that’s gamble on an outcome that would keep you out. Papi, Bonds,Griffey,Clemens etc did nothing more than try to make themselves the absolute best versions of themselves.

 

[Templet0n]

It’s not as if Rose’s name is banned from the hall. He just doesn’t get a plaque because there’s literally only one thing one can do and that’s gamble on an outcome that would keep you out. Papi, Bonds,Griffey,Clemens etc did nothing more than try to make themselves the absolute best versions of themselves.

I dont think Griffy ever enhanced.. He is maybe the one guy you can look at and say was clean. He never got jacked or big. Just had the best swing the game has ever seen..

 

[JB]

I dont think Griffy ever enhanced.. He is maybe the one guy you can look at and say was clean. He never got jacked or big. Just had the best swing the game has ever seen..

Lots of guys didnt get big.
While I have no comment on Griffey, I wouldnt put it past a single player from that era including Jeter, Nomar, Griffey, etc. We choose to support certain guys that were never caught, but hard for me personally to say any of them were clean.

 

[echico]

I dont think Griffy ever enhanced.. He is maybe the one guy you can look at and say was clean. He never got jacked or big. Just had the best swing the game has ever seen..

Getting big is probably the dumbest way to look at HOF criteria. From the 90's on these guys started lifting weights like crazy. There were a lot of legal supplements guys took as well. Did some take roids, of course. Did a lot take roids, probably yes. Were there some freaks that could take some legal supplements and lift weights that got huge...yes.

 

[TRyan]

Lots of guys didnt get big.
While I have no comment on Griffey, I wouldnt put it past a single player from that era including Jeter, Nomar, Griffey, etc. We choose to support certain guys that were never caught, but hard for me personally to say any of them were clean.

 

[Templet0n]

Lots of guys didnt get big.
While I have no comment on Griffey, I wouldnt put it past a single player from that era including Jeter, Nomar, Griffey, etc. We choose to support certain guys that were never caught, but hard for me personally to say any of them were clean.

Of course. It is easier and probably closer to accurate and the truth to think every player was and probably is doing something that is banned. I generally follow that thinking across all sports. With so much on the line. I probably would look for advantages as well.

 

[boggyman]

Vote ‘em in!

 

[AndersonRains]

I dont think Griffy ever enhanced.. He is maybe the one guy you can look at and say was clean. He never got jacked or big. Just had the best swing the game has ever seen..

Lance Armstrong didn't get big either, maybe he's clean too

Kidding, but I don't think you can look at if someone got jacked or not and say they must've not juiced.

 

[Templet0n]

The thing that grinds my gears the most. Is that the sport clearly benefited from this time then and now. It was clearly "good for the game". Then you get holier than though politicians and congressional inquiries and finger wagging. Then you get sports writers that never played the sport but want to make a name for themselves that get to vote with Justice "for the good of the game" as their reasons for holding the sword over one players head and not the other..

 

[DataDude]

So Ozzie Smith isnt a hall of famer?

I think he is, but I’m a little bitter about him stealing the SS spotlight for years from Barry Larkin who was just as good in the field and a far superior hitter.

 

[Scrap22]

It's the Hall of FAME, not the Hall of Morality. Good or bad It was a part of baseball history, They should be in.

 

[JB]

The thing that grinds my gears the most. Is that the sport clearly benefited from this time then and now. It was clearly "good for the game". Then you get holier than though politicians and congressional inquiries and finger wagging. Then you get sports writers that never played the sport but want to make a name for themselves that get to vote with Justice "for the good of the game" as their reasons for holding the sword over one players head and not the other..

True...But lets not forget it wasnt exactly good for the game and not good for the players. They got rich.

 

[TRyan]

I think he is, but I’m a little bitter about him stealing the SS spotlight for years from Barry Larkin who was just as good in the field and a far superior hitter.

While I agree he was a better hitter than Ozzie - He was not 'just as good' in the field.

 

[echico]

The thing that grinds my gears the most. Is that the sport clearly benefited from this time then and now. It was clearly "good for the game". Then you get holier than though politicians and congressional inquiries and finger wagging. Then you get sports writers that never played the sport but want to make a name for themselves that get to vote with Justice "for the good of the game" as their reasons for holding the sword over one players head and not the other..

So good that Bud Selig got in but the players can't. I will beat this dead horse forever.

 

[Templet0n]

True...But lets not forget it wasnt exactly good for the game and not good for the players. They got rich.

Yep. I was not saying that either. The players got theirs. Bobby Bonilla still is getting it. lol.