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Pace of play - walking versus riding

Hawk said:
LOL save me the exaggerations.

In it's pure form you can ride faster than walk, but the day it affects pace of play in any meaningful way give me a call. Golf can be played walking (barring certain courses) well within the limits of acceptable pace of play.
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I never once said it couldn't. Im all for walking but the argument here is that riding is slowing the pace of play and some have even posted these "studies". No need to get offended, I'm sure you walk and do so at a good pace. My argument isn't directed at people like you in anyway. I also don't see how I'm exaggerating, it's what I see at my course every week. So is everyone else exaggerating too?
 
I'm not offended, so no worries there. The word would be annoyed, but that's as much related to the fact that I've read this same thread a dozen times in five years at THP :) It never gets better.
 
Evok said:
I never once said it couldn't. Im all for walking but the argument here is that riding is slowing the pace of play and some have even posted these "studies". No need to get offended, I'm sure you walk and do so at a good pace. My argument isn't directed at people like you in anyway. I also don't see how I'm exaggerating, it's what I see at my course every week. So is everyone else exaggerating too?
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The problem with "studies" of any kind is the manipulation of statistics. Based on my professional experience my opinion is research results are in line with the desired results, more often than not.
 
Hawk said:
I'm not offended, so no worries there. The word would be annoyed, but that's as much related to the fact that I've read this same thread a dozen times in five years at THP :) It never gets better.
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Alright cool haha I mean we're all going to speak from experience and what we see so I guess I should be more open minded. What works on my little course in NY may not work on some super busy course in FL etc and I realize that now, I still think generally riding will be faster. No offense to anyone else out there haha
 
JB said:
But it can happen for people that walk. Set your bag down in one area. Go to the ball and thin it over the green. Hop in cart and drive to it is faster than getting back to bag and walking over. And all of this simply has to make up for the extra time it takes to get to the ball.

Again, it comes down to ettiquete. There are just as many opportunities for slowness with walkers, then add in the sheer amount of time it takes to walk to the ball. Nobody is saying that walkers are always slower. But there seems to be this notion that walkers are more serious and understand ettiquete more, and that is a falicy.
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I didn't say that either. maybe I'm just not communicating my point correctly. Let me try another way:

the average golfer is the only thing that matters in this scenario. We're not talking about pro tournaments or THP-only outings. We're talking about pace at an average course on an average day. A scenario that represents the vast majority of rounds played. There are seasoned vets on the course, along with newbies and everything in between. There are slow golfers, and fast golfers. People who understand proper etiquette and people who do not. Every hole has a foursome and every riding foursome has two carts. That is pretty standard golf course management. Our goal is to improve pace of play.

In that scenario, you have to focus on the slow golfers. the fast ones aren't part of the equation because they aren't negatively affecting pace of play. You also have to look at human nature. 99% of people will self-adjust their behavior if it negatively affects them. a much smaller percentage will self-adjust if it affects other people, assuming they even realize it. Walking ensures one thing without a doubt: inefficiency in movement will always directly affect the golfer in question. The average human being will figure out ways to avoid unnecessary effort. Riding does not equate inefficiency with extra effort, only with extra time. The cart shoulders the burden of the extra effort. Clearly, if pace is an issue at all, then the average golfer is not too concerned with extra time.
 
baldguy said:
I didn't say that either. maybe I'm just not communicating my point correctly. Let me try another way:

the average golfer is the only thing that matters in this scenario. We're not talking about pro tournaments or THP-only outings. We're talking about pace at an average course on an average day. A scenario that represents the vast majority of rounds played. There are seasoned vets on the course, along with newbies and everything in between. There are slow golfers, and fast golfers. People who understand proper etiquette and people who do not. Every hole has a foursome and every riding foursome has two carts. That is pretty standard golf course management. Our goal is to improve pace of play.

In that scenario, you have to focus on the slow golfers. the fast ones aren't part of the equation because they aren't negatively affecting pace of play. You also have to look at human nature. 99% of people will self-adjust their behavior if it negatively affects them. a much smaller percentage will self-adjust if it affects other people, assuming they even realize it. Walking ensures one thing without a doubt: inefficiency in movement will always directly affect the golfer in question. The average human being will figure out ways to avoid unnecessary effort. Riding does not equate inefficiency with extra effort, only with extra time. The cart shoulders the burden of the extra effort. Clearly, if pace is an issue at all, then the average golfer is not too concerned with extra time.
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So are you trying to say that because a person is walking, they'd be less likely to thin it over the green because they know it directly effects them?

I think you missed JB's point entirely.
 
Mulligan9111 said:
So are you trying to say that because a person is walking, they'd be less likely to thin it over the green because they know it directly effects them?

I think you missed JB's point entirely.
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not even close. They'd be less likely to leave their bag in a place that would require unnecessary walking. I didn't address the thinning over the green thing specifically because in that scenario, everyone is walking no matter if they have a cart or not. carts are not allowed inside green complexes on any course I've ever been to.
 
Still not sure how that relates to inherently walkers are less prone to slow play than riders (on average). Not sure what is not being grasped here. The notion that riding offers more chances for bad ettiquete and slowness is incorrect. Walking doesnt "ensure anything". Its like saying that walkers never venture over to watch someone hit and be social instead of going to their own ball.

There are far too many assumptions being made in here about effort, what can slow golf down, etc.
At the end of the day, the notions being presented are just not accurate and are based merely on what an individual might witness (or better yet believe). Nothing wrong with that mind you, but to assume that one group of golfers is slower inherently because of the cart (on average as has been stated) is no different than assuming that bad golfers are slower than good golfers. Which is also equally inaccurate.

The golfer makes the speed, not the choice in using legs or carts.
 
baldguy said:
not even close. They'd be less likely to leave their bag in a place that would require unnecessary walking. I didn't address the thinning over the green thing specifically because in that scenario, everyone is walking no matter if they have a cart or not. carts are not allowed inside green complexes on any course I've ever been to.
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I'm just going to agree to disagree with ya cause this discussion is just going in circles.
 
JB said:
Still not sure how that relates to inherently walkers are less prone to slow play than riders (on average). Not sure what is not being grasped here. The notion that riding offers more chances for bad ettiquete and slowness is incorrect. Walking doesnt "ensure anything". Its like saying that walkers never venture over to watch someone hit and be social instead of going to their own ball.

There are far too many assumptions being made in here about effort, what can slow golf down, etc.
At the end of the day, the notions being presented are just not accurate and are based merely on what an individual might witness (or better yet believe). Nothing wrong with that mind you, but to assume that one group of golfers is slower inherently because of the cart (on average as has been stated) is no different than assuming that bad golfers are slower than good golfers. Which is also equally inaccurate.

The golfer makes the speed, not the choice in using legs or carts.
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I won't counter the rudeness with more rudeness, but I assure you that I am not failing to grasp anything. My observations differ from yours and I'm okay with leaving it at that.
 
WOW. I give up.
Time for me to step away from the forum and leave the facts to the others.
Cya Y'all at the THP Events.
 
Adam Hartzell said:
Not quite 15 mph, but as a former triathlete, adventure racer, and long time cyclist, I probably do walk faster than your average golfer.



Ok, if you are just looking at time it takes to get around a course and taking golfer skill out completely (apples to apples), then yes a cart will always win out.

From my own personal experience, with the courses I play around here, and with no other scientific data to back me up other then my watch, I can play 18 faster when I walk. I focus more when I walk and that leads to less "off" shots, lower scores, and faster rounds.
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I'm sorry logically this is just not true. You can't walk faster than a cart. I know you are running between shots. And I'm there are no areas you can walk that a cart can't travel.

I understand that you walk and like it but you aren't fast we than yourself as a single in a cart. I promise you that.
 
JB said:
The golfer makes the speed, not the choice in using legs or carts.
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Of all that has been said in this thread, this is the smartest comment made.
 
I have played in a group where 2 people took a cart and 2 people walked w/ a caddy and i can tell you this, we were in the cart waiting for the walkers to get to there ball numerous times, so the notion that riding in cart slows play is ludicrous & as for "studies" anyone can create a scenario to makes there study work
 
Hawk said:
I'm not offended, so no worries there. The word would be annoyed, but that's as much related to the fact that I've read this same thread a dozen times this week at THP :) It never gets better.
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Fify in BOLD

we need a massive merge
 
Tadashi70 said:
I'm sorry logically this is just not true. You can't walk faster than a cart. I know you are running between shots. And I'm there are no areas you can walk that a cart can't travel.

I understand that you walk and like it but you aren't fast we than yourself as a single in a cart. I promise you that.
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All I'm saying is that when I play solo in a cart I am slower. Mostly it is due to me playing lazy golf as I just don't focus as much when I'm riding. I spend time looking at my email, THP, Twitter, ect. when I'm in the cart and it's not rolling. When I walk, I can do all this while walking.

I'm sure that if I'd just leave the distractions until after the round, I would most assuredly get through 18 faster in a cart.

I should have been more clear in my first post.
 
Adam Hartzell said:
All I'm saying is that when I play solo in a cart I am slower. Mostly it is due to me playing lazy golf as I just don't focus as much when I'm riding. I spend time looking at my email, THP, Twitter, ect. when I'm in the cart and it's not rolling. When I walk, I can do all this while walking.

I'm sure that if I'd just leave the distractions until after the round, I would most assuredly get through 18 faster in a cart.

I should have been more clear in my first post.
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Clear or not, if we are comparing apple to apples a cart is faster. If golfers hit and chase in each situation, the cart is faster. All this other stuff is just fluff to try to prove a point. I'm not saying you specifically but people in general.
 
Well, I can't believe I'm about to wade into this pond again but ...

Pace of play issues have little, in my opinion, to do with cart vs. walking. It has to do with following the more efficient way to play with each modality. I think it would work out like this:


Round time w/ Cart + Efficient Practices < Round time w/ Walk + Efficient Practices

No doubt both of those are less time than Walk + Inefficient practices

I do not know if if Walk + Efficient < Cart + Inefficient, but it might be.​


I wouldn't even begin to opine what practices are more efficient than others and what would have the largest effect on decreasing time.


*I also didn't read the studies posted at the beginning of this, and I've skimmed a little, so apologies if I covered stuff that was already covered.
 
Tadashi70 said:
Clear or not, if we are comparing apple to apples a cart is faster. If golfers hit and chase in each situation, the cart is faster. All this other stuff is just fluff to try to prove a point. I'm not saying you specifically but people in general.
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Which is way I said earlier, if you take the golfer out of the equation and truly compare apples to apples, the cart will be faster every time. I do agree with you Freddie, I'm just going a round about way to say it.
 
For me Riding is way faster my quickest round riding is 2:30 min walking is 3 hr
 
Of course a singleton driving on an empty course can play faster than a singleton walking the same course in the same conditions. No contest, no argument. But the question is not about how fast the fastest and best players could go on the best days with the best vehicles. It's about who causes the clogs that create slow play and why.

That's a different story and it causes me to agree with bald guy. Clogs on courses are usually caused by riders, not walkers. My reasons for thinking this are based on my years working as a course marshal. Slow play on a Muni on any given day can usually be attributed to a "clog" somewhere on the course. Unclog the clog and pace picks up across the nine. These clogs are almost always caused by a single slow foursome (or moresome) riding in carts. Sometimes they are composed of skilled golfers engaged in a grinding, overly-serious match, but more often than not they are caused by newbies in carts who don't know any better or who have drunk a little too much.

For them golf is a rare outing akin to a celebration. They always rent carts because they are not used to walking, they think it's the thing you do, and they want to have fun driving the little Disney cars. They bring their wives, kids, and the beer. They don't know where to park them or how to get a couple of clubs and walk to the ball. They drive to one ball, hit, then drive to the next (even if it's only ten yards sidewise), then hit the second. They rarely play ready golf, they wait for the worst in the group to catch up.

Walkers, on the other hand, are more fit and tend to play more. As a result, they know the rules more and violate etiquette less. They also get out of the way faster if ever they are caught by a faster group. They just wave you up, duck in the trees, and you go. Four walkers walk separately to their four drives and hit them, they don't huddle together then commute from station to station. I agree, walkers cannot walk a course as fast as a good golfer riding in a cart -- BUT THEY DON'T CAUSE CLOGS. And most importantly of all, a walker generally can't carry enough beer in his bag to impair his judgement and become a problem. The only slow walkers I see are the 80 year old veterans who still insist on walking and love to fish balls out of ponds. Their hearing and vision are often as impaired as their knee joints and sometimes they'll tend to putter a bit before they see you. But they are rare and deserve a break.

I realize that my overview doesn't hold for country clubs, courses that must be ridden due to distances between tees, and upscale resort courses. Different factors come into play on those sorts of courses. I also think that courses in the west tend to be faster than courses in the east. I don't know why this is, but the 90 degree rule and cartpath only rules have a lot to do with it and they seem to be more in force in the east.
 
Who is more prone to hitting into the group ahead? Walkers or riders? Maybe I should make a new thread.
 
Hawk said:
Who is more prone to hitting into the group ahead? Walkers or riders? Maybe I should make a new thread.
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Riders for sure, despite only serious and good golfers walking

and no, I already called dibs on new thread
 
mark blanchard said:
Walkers, on the other hand, are more fit and tend to play more. As a result, they know the rules more and violate etiquette less.
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You haven't played with the guys I played with when I was in Seattle. They all walk and they all walk for one reason, to save money. While they may be fit, they are horrible golfers. A good round for all but one of them is around 130. I've rarely seen worse etiquette on the golf course than a few of those guys exhibited.
 
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