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Rules calls from outside agencies - how should it be handled?

DawgDaddy said:
I am in agreement to the time limitation mentioned by several posters, once the round is complete and the player has signed and the card is verified by the officials, it should be an official round. Now that people are calling in for infractions that must be viewed in slowmotion to detect the call ins have become detrimental to the game. I would venture to guess that the ball is "technically" misplaced when replacing a marked ball at least half of the time. True is may be even 1/10th of the 1.5 dimples, but it is still misplaced. Do we disqualify the entire field, or do we let the players judge if they have done their absolute best to replace the ball. Golf is a game based on intergity and a cheater will soon be exposed.
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Exactly, just like the Scot that was suspended for 3 months earlier in the week. He was cheating, his playing partners refused to sign his card because he was placing the ball back to his advantage, not a freaking dimple and a half. Golf is self policing and doesn't need outside agencies calling in.
 
The chances of one of these guy's intentionally cheating during a round while playing with several other people, their caddies and thousands of eye's around the course, not to mention the millions of viewers around the world is Nil. I don't know when most of these rules were actually put in place, but would imagine most were set long before the advent of high definition tv and HD cameras, or even TGC, lol. The spirit of the game is being changed by the desire of a few to not change the game, lol. Everything evolves or it can't grow with the outside forces and I'm guessing there will be changes made this year to solve these problems.

At least in football we now have extended overtime, lol.
 
Mistakes happen and they should be penalized for mistakes of the rules, by officials on hand.
 
The announcer of the European tour just called them couch potato sleuths. Love it!
 
They need to simply stop allowing these calls to be made. Pretty simple.
 
thedue said:
Mistakes happen and they should be penalized for mistakes of the rules, by officials on hand.
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...but, in most cases there isn't a rules official for each group. The rules official is really not there as a referee who watches for rules violations, but more as a resource should a player have a question wrt the rules and their interpretation.
 
Shankopotamus said:
...but, in most cases there isn't a rules official for each group. The rules official is really not there as a referee who watches for rules violations, but more as a resource should a player have a question wrt the rules and their interpretation.
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I understand that and even if they had someone in every group to catch a mistake we would continue to see problems caught by the slow-mo replay on tv. However, new times mean new adjustments and I think an official with the task of watching the broadcast for mistakes or cheating would still be problematic to a degree, but better than me sitting at home drinking a beer and calling in fouls on the guy's I really want to see penilized.

I also think some of the rules need changed. I called a foul on myself this year because after removed my marker the wind came up and my ball rolled off the mark. There was no way to replace exactly, so I had little choice other than to guess the exact spot. I'm still not sure that was the right call, but if so I think an educated guess with the other players should have been good enough.
 
Jack mentioned this last night ( like I posted yesterday ) wheres the common sense ??
Those on TV are not on an equal playing field imo, but a PGA official said ( I do not agree ) thats just the bad breaks of being good . This is bassakwards thinking too .....
 
These "Good" players would still be at a disadvantage because they are the ones in the broadcast that the official is watching, but it would be an official catching it rather than one of the 10 million viewers at home.

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I 100% support changing the rules- and in fact I have been pretty critical of these after the fact DQs. BUT after thinking last night the arguement for keeping the DQ is starting to take on a little more validity for me. If the DQ is removed, the possibility exists for people trying to cheat the system.

1. Player A knocks the ball and it rolls forward. Under the current system he calls a penalty on himself because if he doesn't and after the round someone notices he'll be DQed. He takes the penalty of 2 strokes to avoid the penalty of a DQ.

2. Under the same circumstance without the DQ rule, a player knocks the ball and thinks he should take a 2 stroke penalty. But, he knows that if someone saw him he can plead ignorance and simply take the penalty he should have called on himself in the first place.

Under case #1 the player has a choice. Take the 2 stroke penalty or risk a DQ later. Under case #2 he has a choice too... Take 2 strokes by calling yourself, or don't call it and at worst take the 2 strokes later. At best he gets off scot free.

The DQ exists to help prevent people from trying to get away with things. I still think a DQ is too tough of a penalty but I am starting to see the side of the argument that you need to have oversight and there needs to be a stiff penalty for things that come to light after the round. Otherwise golf becomes about "what can I get away with" and not "what should I do under the rules of golf". I think the compromise would be to increase the penalty (from 2 strokes to 4 strokes, etc) if the scorecard has been signed... but to remove the DQ that happens the next morning.
 
I don't really disagree with the DQ rule as much as I disagree with the viewer making the call and getting the disqualification. I do disagree with a few rules like the wind blowing a ball off its mark or even occilating. That's an act of nature, like when the seagull picked up a players ball, although in that case there was no penalty.
 
thedue said:
I don't really disagree with the DQ rule as much as I disagree with the viewer making the call and getting the disqualification. I do disagree with a few rules like the wind blowing a ball off its mark or even occilating. That's an act of nature, like when the seagull picked up a players ball, although in that case there was no penalty.
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I think we all have rules that, as Jack would say, lack common sense. I am of the impression that we should scrap the whole rule book and rebuild it in a manner that doesnt require a second book to interpret the original rule book. Until that happens though, these are the rules we have and going against them is (in the strictest sense of the word) cheating. I don't mind the viewer calling in so much as I mind the DQ. I agree though that it would look much better from a PGA standpoint to have a RO follow up on the rules during play and not "rely on" or even encourage viewer contributions.

Edit: I realize my first post was slightly off the topic here, but there was no other real thread to share my changing viewpoint. Also this next comment is a little off topic as well.

I think we often forget that golf was originally designed to be match play- and that stroke play tournaments is something that came out of that. When you aren't protecting a field, the players can police themselves and come to a ruling that each feels is appropriate. Look at Paddy's situation. If it was match play he looks at his opponent and says "I bumped my ball, I don't think it moves" and the other guy is just like "doesn't bother me, play it"... or a ball goes into a hazard. "Hey, this looks like the best place to drop- do you agree?", "Yep, looks fair to me" and play goes on.
 
RxGus said:
I think we all have rules that, as Jack would say, lack common sense. I am of the impression that we should scrap the whole rule book and rebuild it in a manner that doesnt require a second book to interpret the original rule book. Until that happens though, these are the rules we have and going against them is (in the strictest sense of the word) cheating. I don't mind the viewer calling in so much as I mind the DQ. I agree though that it would look much better from a PGA standpoint to have a RO follow up on the rules during play and not "rely on" or even encourage viewer contributions.

Edit: I realize my first post was slightly off the topic here, but there was no other real thread to share my changing viewpoint. Also this next comment is a little off topic as well.

I think we often forget that golf was originally designed to be match play- and that stroke play tournaments is something that came out of that. When you aren't protecting a field, the players can police themselves and come to a ruling that each feels is appropriate. Look at Paddy's situation. If it was match play he looks at his opponent and says "I bumped my ball, I don't think it moves" and the other guy is just like "doesn't bother me, play it"... or a ball goes into a hazard. "Hey, this looks like the best place to drop- do you agree?", "Yep, looks fair to me" and play goes on.
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Also have to keep in mind that the rules were not created with todays technology in mind. Harrington himself said that as far as he could see the ball hadn't moved from it's original position after it settled. Without high def tv and slow motion instant replay, could anyone have seen a ball out of place by less that 3-4 centimeters? It would be like accusing someone of stepping on your pet germ when only you could see said germ using a microscope and the person who stepped on it didn't have access to one.
 
Rule 8-1 does not allow any player to ask or receive advice. Why would they allow someone outside of the golf tournament to interfere and get invloved with a rules question?

8-1. Advice
During a stipulated round, a player must not:
(a) give advice to anyone in the competition playing on the course other than his partner, or
(b) ask for advice from anyone other than his partner or either of their caddies.
 
i have wayyyy too many pet germs right now
 
crazygolfnut said:
Rule 8-1 does not allow any player to ask or receive advice. Why would they allow someone outside of the golf tournament to interfere and get invloved with a rules question?

8-1. Advice
During a stipulated round, a player must not:
(a) give advice to anyone in the competition playing on the course other than his partner, or
(b) ask for advice from anyone other than his partner or either of their caddies.
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Advice does not mean advice as to the rules, or any other "common knowledge".The rule you quote is regarding asking advice as to how to play the course or a shot.

For example, if you have a range finder, and I don't, and I ask you what distance I have to the pin(and you tell me), neither of us have broken any rules. If I ask "because its uphill, what does it play like ?" I have broken the rule.

If I ask you about a rule, I have not broken any rule, because it is common knowledge.


... for us old fogies, the rule used to be ...you can't give advice, but it wasn't a breach of rule to ask.

...to extend your interpretation of that rule would make it a breach of rules for any player to call another player on a rule.


You can go to The USGA site, aor check this out...

http://www.barryrhodes.com/2009/02/golf-rules-asking-for-and-giving-advice.html
 
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RonInThornton said:
Also have to keep in mind that the rules were not created with todays technology in mind. Harrington himself said that as far as he could see the ball hadn't moved from it's original position after it settled. Without high def tv and slow motion instant replay, could anyone have seen a ball out of place by less that 3-4 centimeters? It would be like accusing someone of stepping on your pet germ when only you could see said germ using a microscope and the person who stepped on it didn't have access to one.
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+2. Well said!
 
what if...and just supposing...what if the "caller is put upon to call by the playing opponent of the person who broke the rule...and was just uncomfortable confronting them??...hmmm?
 
They need to end the call ins.
 
Shankopotamus said:
Advice does not mean advice as to the rules, or any other "common knowledge".The rule you quote is regarding asking advice as to how to play the course or a shot.

For example, if you have a range finder, and I don't, and I ask you what distance I have to the pin(and you tell me), neither of us have broken any rules. If I ask "because its uphill, what does it play like ?" I have broken the rule.

If I ask you about a rule, I have not broken any rule, because it is common knowledge.


... for us old fogies, the rule used to be ...you can't give advice, but it wasn't a breach of rule to ask.

...to extend your interpretation of that rule would make it a breach of rules for any player to call another player on a rule.


You can go to The USGA site, aor check this out...

http://www.barryrhodes.com/2009/02/golf-rules-asking-for-and-giving-advice.html
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You stated that well. I guess my thinking is that maybe they should follow the no advice rule and not allow outside sources interfere with what is going on with the tournament.
 
crazygolfnut said:
You stated that well. I guess my thinking is that maybe they should follow the no advice rule and not allow outside sources interfere with what is going on with the tournament.
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I think we all pretty much agree that they need to stop this calling in business. It just makes things way too unfair with so many players in the field week in week out that are not in the eye of the camera therefore not under the same amount of scrutiny.
The sad thing is it looks like the USGA/R&A will do nothing. We have had televised golf for how long now.....forty years and it seems this issue came out of no where but appears to not be going away anytime soon. Sad
 
crazygolfnut said:
You stated that well. I guess my thinking is that maybe they should follow the no advice rule and not allow outside sources interfere with what is going on with the tournament.
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Simple question... you're in the gallery at a tour event, and you see a player give his ball a little foot wedge of about 2 inches to move it away from a root when nobody is looking. What do you do ?
 
Shankopotamus said:
Simple question... you're in the gallery at a tour event, and you see a player give his ball a little foot wedge of about 2 inches to move it away from a root when nobody is looking. What do you do ?
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That's a simply good question. It's difficult to specify where 'outside agencies' start. Do we say anyone not on site at the time?

It's puzzling to see how every person in this thread can agree that this needs to stop, and every other person I've talked to thinks the same....yet the authorities don't seem to be making at least an effort to discuss this (as far as we know).
 
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