The new Cleveland RTX ZipCore wedges have been getting rave reviews as of late on the THP Forum. With many golfers using this end of their bag as extensions to their irons, we got to thinking about forgiveness and how it impacts full swings. Here is Cleveland RTX ZipCore vs CBX2 wedges.
Our content is about answering your questions and this is the number one question we have received about wedges…Does Forgiveness Matter? This is a pretty eye opening video showing the swings and data from two VERY different styles and let you decide which would be right for you.
The goal was simple, to show two very different wedge styles and what impact that would have for those that use them for full swings. When we began shooting, we genuinely had no idea what the outcome would be. There is no denying how solid both of the lines from Cleveland Golf are, but outside of being from the same company, stark differences exist.
Important to note that there will be some sole and versatility differences between these two lines. As you get into flighting, workability and some areas around the green other aspects become apparent. For this comparison however, we wanted to focus on the question we get asked the most. Does forgiveness matter in wedges and using Cleveland RTX ZipCore vs CBX2 wedges to demonstrate.
After watching the video above, which one is right for you and what style of wedge do you play? You can find more information about both ZipCore and CBX2 at their website here.
Great video. Really eye opening actually. I wonder why more companies don’t make this type of wedge?
I was impressed by the consistency of the CBX 2. Golfers should try to take the most variables out and try to do the same thing. I am very interested in a CB wedge like CBX2 and the Mack Daddy CB in the gap(48-50*) and the sand wedge(54*).
[QUOTE=”NVGOLFER80, post: 9586044, member: 53139″]
I wonder if you and the spinner shaft do not really get along…
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I wondered the same thing about the shaft. I’m not a big fan of the stock spinner and it shows up in my dispersion on full shots. I was surprised to hear Dan’s been playing them for years. Wouldn’t have guessed that from this video. All very interesting.
[QUOTE=”Jman, post: 9586115, member: 1579″]
No, but the sole grind is super versatile. And I say that as one who loves low bounce in his LW (y)
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I’ve absolutely seen that in my ZipCore Tour Rack wedge. The Full / S-Shaped sole is very similar to the sole on the CBX2 56*, and I’ve found it to be very forgiving on the 60* LW. The sole on my RTX4 60* is more of a C-Grind, and with only 6* bounce it is not very forgiving, but I trust the low-bounce on hard bunkers and tight hard-pan lies.
I switched to the Ping glide at the beginning of the year, which I would assume is classed as a forgiving wedge. My short game has improved noticeably since the switch. Now I’ve switched, playing cavities in all the clubs then switching to a blade in the wedges seems crazy.
I will have to watch video at home tonight. That being said forgiveness matters in everything we play to a point. I believe there is a comfort point of feel vs forgiveness to many people. If you don’t feel comfortable with a club you won’t like it no matter what.
Great content, guys. The Soft Feel combo with those wedges was really interesting to see. Feels like not enough club reviews use the ball (s) people who play particular clubs actually use. I really liked that. Interesting numbers as well.
I’m big on forgiveness in wedges for most people and have been screaming it this entire year. Hopefully a few more eyes have been opened. Good stuff.
Just watched this again, props once more to the smoothness and content of this one. So good.
[QUOTE=”Canadan, post: 9586059, member: 2320″]
The standard deviation (read: variance) in dispersion, while small, was doubled with ZipCore over CBX2. My impression was that CBX2 was incredibly consistent, and the data stands to confirm that.
Also, does the conversation have to be about the full wedge spectrum? Considering I use my 58 exclusively around the green, why would I care that my 54 or 50 didn’t have the same grind versatility?
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Excellent video and discussion on these two great wedges.
With that on consistent performance should people look at 50/56 for CBX2 and zipcore for the high lofted wedge? are you making that bag adjustment?
Very interesting video. I’m tempted by a certain driver but my game would be helped most by changing the other end of the bag to have more forgiving wedges on full swing shots. This is great info for that consideration.
Really interesting and I am a bit surprised by the numbers.
I went from the RTX-3 CB to the ZipCore and was seeing a bit more distance and a ton more spin. But, it looks like the CBX2 for Dan was crushing it. Almost 2000 more spin, less variance, longer distance. All great numbers.
Before I picked up the Cobra MIM wedges I was using the CBX2 in a 52 and the Full Face in a 56 and 60. Cleveland has made some great wedges and looking at them they just put that little bit of extra confidence as you address the ball. My issue is I’m a “scooper’ of the ball with my wedges so I found myself taking big divots with my TItleist wedges. The Cleveland wedges just give you the feel of a GI iron which is awesome! They are great wedges….but I do love those MIM wedges 🙂
Thanks. Very interesting. I’m nowhere near appreciating the differences but the CBX2 seemed pretty good.
[QUOTE=”bombs, post: 9585874, member: 59898″]
If you want more forginess on full swings then purchase the GW that comes with your iron set. It will be far more forgiving than any cavity back wedge.
If you need added forgivness on chip and pitch shots then practice more. The loss of feel and control is not worth the trade-off that comes with any cavity back wedge.
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I do both. I have the “gap” wedge from my iron set which is my 110 yard club and then go to the CBX2 in 54* which is my 100 yard club Rather good yardage gaps IMO for full shots. I really enjoy its forgiveness just as Dan pointed out.
Enjoyed this video a lot. Would be interesting to run a similar test with a 15 handicap. My gut tells me that the dispersion difference would be at least as great and maybe moreso.
I play the blade style (ZipCore) and think that is right for my game. I do flight my wedges quite a bit. I was kind of surprised the launch angle was 2.5 degrees higher with the ZipCore. I would have thought it would have been reversed.
I’ve always bought into a more forgiving wedge. While I haven’t quite liked the feel of many of the CB wedges that I’ve tried over the years, I have long preferred larger wedges.
Whether their’s was real or perceived forgiveness, I much prefer the psychological comfort that a larger wedge provides me.
Lately it’s been two iterations of the PM Grind, the Hi-Toe, CBX, and currently I’m back to my Fourteen RM-22J wedges.
[QUOTE=”Canadan, post: 9586059, member: 2320″]
The standard deviation (read: variance) in dispersion, while small, was doubled with ZipCore over CBX2. My impression was that CBX2 was incredibly consistent, and the data stands to confirm that.
Also, does the conversation have to be about the full wedge spectrum? Considering I use my 58 exclusively around the green, why would I care that my 54 or 50 didn’t have the same grind versatility?
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For the first part, you were spinning the CBX’s more. That would account for the small improvement in consistency. But you kept swings in the results that were several mph faster with the CBX versus the RTX so you can’t suggest the head caused that, regardless of what [USER=1579]@Jman[/USER] or others may see. All things being equal, an increase in club head speed will increase spin. So to confirm the head added spin you’d need to keep shots in your results that are consistent between both clubs. You’d really need the same shafts as well, but that’s not likely to help the average consumer who will opt for the stock shaft and I get that.
As for the second part, the lack of options may not matter to you, but may to others. So it should be in the conversation, but not as a deal breaker for everyone. Some may want more grind/bounce options and they have that with the Cleveland traditional wedges. It’s just my opinion, but I see no real benefits in the numbers from this test to justify giving up options for the CBX.
Great swinging [USER=2320]@Canadan[/USER], awesome comparison.
I am shocked that the ZipCore was outperformed in most categories, specifically the spin. I have noticed the spin with my ZipCore to be better than any other wedge I have played. That is just out on the course as I have not done any comparisons on a simulator.
For full shots, say through the SW I would say yes, if it’s 58* or more I don’t think I’d worry about it as much
[QUOTE=”-CRW-, post: 9586465, member: 19792″]
For the first part, you were spinning the CBX’s more. That would account for the small improvement in consistency. But you kept swings in the results that were several mph faster with the CBX versus the RTX so you can’t suggest the head caused that, regardless of what [USER=1579]@Jman[/USER] or others may see. All things being equal, an increase in club head speed will increase spin. So to confirm the head added spin you’d need to keep shots in your results that are consistent between both clubs. You’d really need the same shafts as well, but that’s not likely to help the average consumer who will opt for the stock shaft and I get that.
As for the second part, the lack of options may not matter to you, but may to others. So it should be in the conversation, but not as a deal breaker for everyone. Some may want more grind/bounce options and they have that with the Cleveland traditional wedges. It’s just my opinion, but I see no real benefits in the numbers from this test to justify giving up options for the CBX.
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what do you mean by ‘kept swings’? We didn’t throw away anything – Would defeat the purpose.
Also; ball speed is a representation of strike quality in most conditions, no? If I’m hitting nearly identical profiles, it’s not like I’ll be swinging faster with one or the other. Is that not a perfect representation of the improved consistency of CBX2?
[QUOTE=”Hackapotamus, post: 9586393, member: 47333″]
Enjoyed this video a lot. Would be interesting to run a similar test with a 15 handicap. My gut tells me that the dispersion difference would be at least as great and maybe moreso.
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Based on the strike pattern (hopefully not ego), I think having a finite variance is a great representation of the differences in the head. And while I absolutely agree it’d be fun to have a variety of players hit the heads to showcase the differences, you start to fall away from what matters most (the head performance) and rely more heavily on the strike quality (the player).
[QUOTE=”Canadan, post: 9586507, member: 2320″]
Based on the strike pattern (hopefully not ego), I think having a finite variance is a great representation of the differences in the head. And while I absolutely agree it’d be fun to have a variety of players hit the heads to showcase the differences, you start to fall away from what matters most (the head performance) and rely more heavily on the strike quality (the player).
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That’s a great point. Would just be curious to see how five toe strikes on each head would compare, for example. In any event, I appreciate the thought and nuance that went into this.
Good stuff as always. The last set of Cleveland wedges I had (RTX3’s) I found to be great around the green, but a little more difficult on full shots. I think for me, if I went the Cleveland route again, I’d probably do a bit of a combo with the CBX in the 50/52/54 slot and then the Zip in the 56/60.
Nice video Dan! I could use the forgiveness for sure and that full face option is really intriguing.
Great video and numbers were eye opening for sure.
This was pretty interesting given that I recently added the CBX2 to my bag in 54 and 58 degrees.
As a very high handicapper, wedges were an after thought for me. I generally used the gap wedge that came with my iron set around the green to varying degrees of success. I’ve only had the CBX2’s out for 3 rounds and I’m already getting more and more comfortable with them. Depending on the situation, I am almost always grabbing one of them when I miss yet another approach shot. I love them and can’t wait to get even more confident with them.
Gun to my head, I’m CBX2, but I’d be hard pressed to move away from Jaws.
[QUOTE=”Canadan, post: 9585957, member: 2320″]
What if you play a set of cavity back irons that doesn’t have a set GW? Also, if it’s a player CB, what makes it more forgiving than the CBX2 wedge? Painting a rather broad stroke there, no?[/QUOTE]
The market that cavity back wedges are targeting would be better served by their set GW in almost all situations.
If someone is good enough to play cavity back irons they should not need the added help of a cavity back gap wedge.
I would never recommend using cavity back wedges for sand or lob wedges. These are clubs where touch and feel should be valued over full shot forgiveness.
I would also never recommmend mixing wedges i.e. a Set PW, 50 CBX then 54/58 zipcore. Too much variation in feel etc.
[QUOTE=”bombs, post: 9586797, member: 59898″]I would never recommend using cavity back wedges for sand or lob wedges. These are clubs where touch and feel should be valued over full shot forgiveness.[/QUOTE]
That would be a pretty poor recommendation then.
[QUOTE=”OldandStiff, post: 9586184, member: 53737″]
Great content, guys. The Soft Feel combo with those wedges was really interesting to see. Feels like not enough club reviews use the ball (s) people who play particular clubs actually use. I really liked that. Interesting numbers as well.
I’m big on forgiveness in wedges for most people and have been screaming it this entire year. Hopefully a few more eyes have been opened. Good stuff.
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I heard your screams, one of the main reasons I switched from Vokey to Glide 3.0’s.
[QUOTE=”Canadan, post: 9586500, member: 2320″]
what do you mean by ‘kept swings’? We didn’t throw away anything – Would defeat the purpose.
Also; ball speed is a representation of strike quality in most conditions, no? If I’m hitting nearly identical profiles, it’s not like I’ll be swinging faster with one or the other. Is that not a perfect representation of the improved consistency of CBX2?
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Disregard everything I’ve said. I was thinking the left column was club head speed bc low 90’s is what I’d expect from your swing out of a wedge seeing past videos. I didn’t even look up on that column to see it was ball speed. My bad.
[QUOTE=”gkeller813, post: 9585860, member: 51675″]
Great topic, and this is a comparison I’ve been wondering about for a while.
Question. Seems like the CBX2 is made for full shots while the Zipcore would be for working the ball a bit more. Would you think a good option for people who are creative around the green would be to get the Zipcore in a higher loft for greenside shots, then the CBX2 in a lower loft to pair more for shots that require a full swing? I see most people wanting the same set of wedges throughout, but this data might suggest going that route could have some benefits.
Great video!
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I been thinking of this also. I recently bought an RTX-4 just before the zip core came out. I have it in 50/10-Mid. I still have Tour Edge 56 and 60. I will probably swap out the TE 56 with the CBX2 and more than likely full grind. (just the opposite of what this post suggests). I really cannot give you a good reason other than maybe for greenside bunker.
[QUOTE=”bombs, post: 9586797, member: 59898″]
The market that cavity back wedges are targeting would be better served by their set GW in almost all situations.
If someone is good enough to play cavity back irons they should not need the added help of a cavity back gap wedge.
I would never recommend using cavity back wedges for sand or lob wedges. These are clubs where touch and feel should be valued over full shot forgiveness.
I would also never recommmend mixing wedges i.e. a Set PW, 50 CBX then 54/58 zipcore. Too much variation in feel etc.
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These comments are a little bit baffling to me – Maybe because we perceive the game differently. Is there a skill threshold that says someone doesn’t benefit from a cavity back product? Where does the line get drawn? Rickie Fowler used an SGI 4 iron last year on tour, should he turn in his tour card?
Also, if someone uses a CB iron in the PW, why does that automagically requires the next club in his bag to be a bladed wedge? I’ll absolutely concede that there are benefits to set-based wedges, but I also think a lot of golfers like having three ‘wedges’ in their bag unique to their irons.
Furthering this, after hitting five shots with each, in a fairly small dispersion pattern on both faces, I saw better ball speed, tighter dispersion, and what I would potentially argue to be more enjoyable ‘feel’ using the CBX2 from a personal perspective.
I also have a better-than-scratch handicap based on GHIN at the moment. Am I ineligible to benefit from these, despite what the video presents?
Interesting numbers for sure. The CBX2 is a wedge I’d like to try one of these days.
[QUOTE=”Canadan, post: 9586952, member: 2320″]
These comments are a little bit baffling to me – Maybe because we perceive the game differently. Is there a skill threshold that says someone doesn’t benefit from a cavity back product? Where does the line get drawn? Rickie Fowler used an SGI 4 iron last year on tour, should he turn in his tour card?
Also, if someone uses a CB iron in the PW, why does that automagically requires the next club in his bag to be a bladed wedge? I’ll absolutely concede that there are benefits to set-based wedges, but I also think a lot of golfers like having three ‘wedges’ in their bag unique to their irons.
Furthering this, after hitting five shots with each, in a fairly small dispersion pattern on both faces, I saw better ball speed, tighter dispersion, and what I would potentially argue to be more enjoyable ‘feel’ using the CBX2 from a personal perspective.
I also have a better-than-scratch handicap based on GHIN at the moment. Am I ineligible to benefit from these, despite what the video presents?
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and sometimes the reverse is true. I hit my Icon’s better than my EXi’s, my Titleist MB 5 iron better than either of the others. Granted, my skill level is not nearly as good as many, consistency varies, but I know which feel and play better. of course, we are really talking abut wedges here.
[QUOTE=”pinseeker, post: 9587063, member: 49355″]
and sometimes the reverse is true. I hit my Icon’s better than my EXi’s, my Titleist MB 5 iron better than either of the others. Granted, my skill level is not nearly as good as many, consistency varies, but I know which feel and play better. of course, we are really talking abut wedges here.
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I think the point is more about totally eliminating a segment of golfers from a product like this purely based on skill level, which i think is a reach.
What I do appreciate, is that we all have differing levels of perspective on what we ‘can’ or ‘should’ play. Whether it’s mental, whether it’s results driven, whether it’s purely trying to look cool – I’m good with that at the individual level. But to eliminate based on skill? No thanks.
Until someone makes a forgiving hosel, I’m going to say no.
[QUOTE=”Canadan, post: 9587160, member: 2320″]
I think the point is more about totally eliminating a segment of golfers from a product like this purely based on skill level, which i think is a reach.
What I do appreciate, is that we all have differing levels of perspective on what we ‘can’ or ‘should’ play. Whether it’s mental, whether it’s results driven, whether it’s purely trying to look cool – I’m good with that at the individual level. But to eliminate based on skill? No thanks.
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Stone cold truth.
Great video, very interesting to see how consistent the CBX is. I’m a bit surprised at how close the 2 were in distance, I was expecting a blended set might cause gapping issues with wedges but they look pretty close. As a high handicapper this is just more evidence that I need to look at these for my next wedges set. I’m thinking about going with a blended set with 2 CBX wedges for full shots and a blade style wedge for short game.
[QUOTE=”jvbart, post: 9587952, member: 52290″]
Great video, very interesting to see how consistent the CBX is. I’m a bit surprised at how close the 2 were in distance, I was expecting a blended set might cause gapping issues with wedges but they look pretty close. As a high handicapper this is just more evidence that I need to look at these for my next wedges set. I’m thinking about going with a blended set with 2 CBX wedges for full shots and a blade style wedge for short game.
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Thanks for watching!
I went in with mild expectations but an open mind, and was absolutely shocked. I thought ZipCore would have been my absolute.
I’ve noodled around a thought for a while since I got the cbx2 and full face wedges. I think even better players would benefit from forgiving wedges more than they would irons. Don’t have any underlying data that proves me right. Just a thought I’ve had.
I watched the video a second time and i looked at your pictures of impact. With how consistent your impact is. Which is impressive.
with the consistency of impact are we testing forgiveness? Or just that a higher moi parameter weighted wedges may be more efficient?
[QUOTE=”NVGOLFER80, post: 9588782, member: 53139″]
I watched the video a second time and i looked at your pictures of impact. With how consistent your impact is. Which is impressive.
with the consistency of impact are we testing forgiveness? Or just that a higher moi parameter weighted wedges may be more efficient?
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I think we’re considering a specific threshold that doesn’t get talked about enough, and that’s the ability to hit the intended shot without it being at the ‘cost’ of something like perceived ‘control’ or direction.
I’ve always believed heavily in the perspective that you should play the absolute most forgiving iron that you can without feeling like it’s costing you anything (whether assumed or experienced). Basically, a shape that supports your errors while still making you have confidence in your ability to hit ‘your’ shot.
In this case, I think CBX2 promotes that invisible level of ‘forgiveness’ as it relates to miniscule variances on the face (not extreme error). It really supports the idea that this wedge can be viable in a much deeper collective of bags than what may have been assumed after a century of bladed wedges being norm.
Your a better golfer than I am for sure. I don’t question that. And I agree that forgiveness is important in everyone’s game and that a “forgiving” club probably execute 95% or more any shot a more “precision” geared club could.
I agree with all of that. Just have some other thoughts and questions going through my small brain as well…
just don’t want them to come across challenging as they are not. Just curious to discuss..
[QUOTE=”NVGOLFER80, post: 9588840, member: 53139″]
Your a better golfer than I am for sure. I don’t question that. And I agree that forgiveness is important in everyone’s game and that a “forgiving” club probably execute 95% or more any shot a more “precision” geared club could.
I agree with all of that. Just have some other thoughts and questions going through my small brain as well…
just don’t want them to come across challenging as they are not. Just curious to discuss..
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Discussion is good!
[QUOTE=”NVGOLFER80, post: 9588840, member: 53139″]
Your a better golfer than I am for sure. I don’t question that. And I agree that forgiveness is important in everyone’s game and that a “forgiving” club probably execute 95% or more any shot a more “precision” geared club could.
I agree with all of that. Just have some other thoughts and questions going through my small brain as well…
just don’t want them to come across challenging as they are not. Just curious to discuss..
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I absolutely LOVE debating the crazy nuances of the golf game. Especially when they force us to think in a way that isn’t normally presented. It’s very fun for me.
Glad you’re engaging in it.
[QUOTE=”Canadan, post: 9588854, member: 2320″]
I absolutely LOVE debating the crazy nuances of the golf game. Especially when they force us to think in a way that isn’t normally presented. It’s very fun for me.
Glad you’re engaging in it.
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Anything that challenges conventional thinking is good and I am for. I love these tech studio segments for that reason.
I am just wondering if 5 full swing with two clubs really shows what you are saying. Not that what you are saying is wrong. I don’t think it is. But, Where does the trade off or give and take start to show?
half shots? 3 quarter? If you wanted to flight one Up or down? Etc? There has to be something you are gaining or losing with one design or the other..
Great video. Impressive how well you hit the CBX wedge. I have the original CBX wedges (SW and LW) and they were great on full shots but touchy, partial shots were not great for me. I was not able to spin them as much as other wedges either on less than full shots (pitches and chips).
[QUOTE=”NVGOLFER80, post: 9588861, member: 53139″]
Anything that challenges conventional thinking is good and I am for. I love these tech studio segments for that reason.
I am just wondering if 5 full swing with two clubs really shows what you are saying. Not that what you are saying is wrong. I don’t think it is. But, Where does the trade off or give and take start to show?
half shots? 3 quarter? If you wanted to flight one Up or down? Etc? There has to be something you are gaining or losing with one design or the other..
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Yeah, it’s been discussed a bit in the thread, but a great question for those who are looking to use CBX2 through the wedges, or have an affinity for flighting/shaping wedges. Me? I’m the kind of guy who’d rather play straight line or full swing numbers until I’m at that 100ish yard mark aka my 58 degree. Anything outside that, I’d treat no differently than my perspective on irons.