Ethics in the Golf Industry

[Colt]

How many more people will play a course on a Saturday or a Sunday compared to a Tuesday?

With that higher traffic you need to have more rangers on the course, more carts on the course, more maintenance and ground repair, more bartenders, more staff in the proshop. It isn't price gouging or taking advantage. It's covering overhead.

I wouldn't call myself a golf officionado exactly. But I've played tons of courses in about 6 different states now and I've never noticed an increase in anything on the weekends, anywhere, not even at resort courses. Staffing has always been pretty constant. Maybe an extra cart girl, but that's about it.

I see it as the courses right to charge what they want, when they want. I don't see it as unethical. It's supply and demand. But I just don't see that as being a good excuse for them doing it.

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[blugold]

I always just thought it was cheaper during the week to attract more people.

Maybe. But if you breakdown the costs to operate a course during the week compared to the weekends, I would think there would be a difference.

 

[CharlieMoy]

Staffing has always been pretty constant. Maybe an extra cart girl, but that's about it.

I do this for a living and believe me, staffing increases. It just looks constant because they strategically add 1 or 2 people and it looks the same because there are more golfers, too.

 

[jlukes]

I always just thought it was cheaper during the week to attract more people.

Exactly. Just like many sports teams (outside of football) have different ticket values based on who the home team is playing.

Yankees/Royals tickets on a Tuesday night are priced lower than Yankees/Redsox on a Saturday night in order to attract more customers. It's a very basic business practice.

 

[CharlieMoy]

Maybe. But if you breakdown the costs to operate a course during the week compared to the weekends, I would think there would be a difference.

If youre looking at a course as a whole, it certainly is more expensive to run any weekday (tu-fr) weekday than a weekend(fri-sun).

 

[jlukes]

It's all about the Laffer curve: finding the highest price point to maximize profit. Again, very basic business practice. Most people golf on the weekends so golf courses are going to raise prices to the point where they don't scare away golfers and thus diminish their returns.

Simple business practice.

 

[deleebar]

I always just thought it was cheaper during the week to attract more people.

This.

I can see why they wouldn't change prices at resort courses or destination golf locations (Vegas, FL, Hawaii) because a large part of their consumers will be playing weekdays regardless. Up around me, almost every course has had varying rates based on day/season

 

[blugold]

If youre looking at a course as a whole, it certainly is more expensive to run any weekday (tu-fr) weekday than a weekend(fri-sun).

You might be right now that I think of it. Probably more expense per golfer on the weekdays because of the reduced head count. Am I thinking of it that way.

 

[blugold]

It's all about the Laffer curve: finding the highest price point to maximize profit. Again, very basic business practice. Most people golf on the weekends so golf courses are going to raise prices to the point where they don't scare away golfers and thus diminish their returns.

Simple business practice.

And not unethical IMO.

 

[jlukes]

And not unethical IMO.

Not in the slightest. It's capitalism.

What would be unethical is if the USGA came out and put standard rates in place across the board. THAT would be unethical. It would be Golf Communism.

 

[rollin]

How many more people will play a course on a Saturday or a Sunday compared to a Tuesday?

With that higher traffic you need to have more rangers on the course, more carts on the course, more maintenance and ground repair, more bartenders, more staff in the proshop. It isn't price gouging or taking advantage. It's covering overhead.

But the fact that you have more golfers (collecting many more greens fees) to begin with on the weekend vs the tuesday will in itself pay for the increased expenses of it anyway. But now they tack on even more.

 

[jlukes]

But the fact that you have more golfers (collecting many more greens fees) to begin with on the weekend vs the tuesday will in itself pay for the increased expenses of it anyway. But now they tack on even more.

Supply and demand.

 

[blugold]

Supply and demand.

It's apparently unethical to post your greens fees and maximize profit with those posted costs.

 

[ArmyGolf]

I am not a fan of some of the golf marketing that goes on, but I wouldn't call it unethical. The Callaway release of the Razr Fit Xtreme was my wake up call. "The longest driver in golf" wasn't even longer than the previous Razr Fit. I just felt dumb for believing and shelling out the cash based on marketing. At least I have a nice alignment stick.
The release of the Optiforce was much better IMO...let the product speak for itself.

 

[jlukes]

It's apparently unethical to post your greens fees and maximize profit with those posted costs.

And we, as consumers, have the ability to take our business elsewhere.

 

[rollin]

we can call it
-normal business practice
-supply and demand
-smart business
Whatver we wish to call it, this is done with just about everything we do or want. Because it is evrywhere, anything, and been going on forever we have become very use to this and by default has become very acceptable. But just because something has always been done a certain way and has become the norm doesnt mean it has always been or is now ethical. It can still morally be wrong and this is one imo. It is (in the end) mostly about taking advantage of the masses to turn more bucks.

 

[jlukes]

we can call it
-normal business practice
-supply and demand
-smart business
Whatver we wish to call it, this is done with just about everything we do or want. Because it is evrywhere, anything, and been going on forever we have become very use to this and by default has become very acceptable. But just because something has always been done a certain way and has become the norm doesnt mean it has always been or is now ethical. It can still morally be wrong and this is one imo. It is (in the end) mostly about taking advantage of the masses to turn more bucks.

Golf is a luxury, it isn't a "need". I don't believe any company that "sells" a luxury can be accused of charging too much. They will charge what people are willing to pay and if people aren't willing to pay they will go out of business. It is survival of the fittest.

If you want to argue that Wireless service providers and cable companies are unethical, you wouldnt get an argument from me. However, saying golf courses cost too much is like saying Mercedes, Ferrari, and Audi are unethical for charging to much. There are other options.

 

[jmatt]

we can call it
-normal business practice
-supply and demand
-smart business
Whatver we wish to call it, this is done with just about everything we do or want. Because it is evrywhere, anything, and been going on forever we have become very use to this and by default has become very acceptable. But just because something has always been done a certain way and has become the norm doesnt mean it has always been or is now ethical. It can still morally be wrong and this is one imo. It is (in the end) mostly about taking advantage of the masses to turn more bucks.

Ethics != Morals

Without opening a giant philosophical can o' worms, businesses exist to make money. Anythng that does not violate the "rules" (laws, mainly) is ethical.
Morality isn't part of it. I'd like it to be, but it isn't.

 

[rollin]

Golf is a luxury, it isn't a "need". I don't believe any company that "sells" a luxury can be accused of charging too much. They will charge what people are willing to pay and if people aren't willing to pay they will go out of business. It is survival of the fittest.

If you want to argue that Wireless service providers and cable companies are unethical, you wouldnt get an argument from me. However, saying golf courses cost too much is like saying Mercedes, Ferrari, and Audi are unethical for charging to much. There are other options.

I like the wireless and cable examples as i was just talking that with the wife yesterday. They are really getting out of hand. or been so for a long time now.

Anyway back to it. If i need a car you are correct, I dont have to buy a Ferrari and I dont even have to buy new at all. But if i want to golf I dont have a choice. I either pay it for when i am able to go or i dont go at all and thats it. I dont have other choices for playing. I'm not talking CC's. Municipal county courses are all i can afford and that cost (like so many other golfers) besides time is what prevents many from playing as much as they would like or much at all.

Charging what people are willing to pay is certainly the best way to make money for business but it still doesnt make it right to make people pay more money because they know those people can only golf on the weekend imo. They are indeed (weather or not you feel its right or wrong) taking advantage of the fact that you can only golf on the weekend. That is a fact. there is no other way around that. Imo its not ethical. Its the norm, its acceptable, and always was, but its still not right. imo

EDITED - Perhpas Morals (according to "jmatt") is more what i'm discussing than ethics, i dont know for sure.

 

[rollin]

Ethics != Morals

Without opening a giant philosophical can o' worms, businesses exist to make money. Anythng that does not violate the "rules" (laws, mainly) is ethical.
Morality isn't part of it. I'd like it to be, but it isn't.

I always thought the two would sort of go together. But I could be wrong.

 

[Hawk]

Ethics have nothing to do with laws. Morals and ethics are intertwined. Laws can and often are immoral and unethical.

 

[JB]

Anyway back to it. If i need a car you are correct, I dont have to buy a Ferrari and I dont even have to buy new at all. But if i want to golf I dont have a choice. I either pay it for when i am able to go or i dont go at all and thats it. I dont have other choices for playing. I'm not talking CC's. Municipal county courses are all i can afford and that cost (like so many other golfers) besides time is what prevents many from playing as much as they would like or much at all.

But many need a car for transportation to earn a living.
Nobody needs to play golf. That analogy does not work.
A better analogy would be a watch. If you have a job that demands you know the exact time every hour. You dont need a Rolex, you could buy a watch for a single dollar that will tell the time.
Cell phones are another example. Most dont need a data plan and smart phone (obviously some do), but its a choice and they can charge what they want for that luxury.

Nobody needs to play golf. We are glad that so many want to enjoy the game that we enjoy, but its certainly not a need.

 

[jmatt]

Ethics have nothing to do with laws. Morals and ethics are intertwined. Laws can and often are immoral and unethical.

It's been a long time since that one undergrad Philosophy course, so I could well be wrong. Intertwined, sure, and on a personal level you've probably more correct than I.
In the context of an industry, though, I look at ethics as the rules governing the operation of that industry, which are mainly laws for this. I'm not convinced "ethics" even apply to anything that isn't a person.

And that's probably why I did so poorly in my elective "bird" course. Should have gone with Classics.

 

[sternalot]

I'm sorry but the people equating higher greens fees on weekends to unethical behavior are just flat wrong. Every Saturday and Sunday, the tee sheet fills up at my local course which tells me that more than enough people are willing to pay that amount. Would it be nice if greens fees were cheaper on the weekend? Sure, but the job of a business isn't to hand things out because it makes certain people feel better about their decision to participate.

This conversation is about ethics, not whether or not certain people and/or businesses are generous.

 

[rollin]

But many need a car for transportation to earn a living.
Nobody needs to play golf. That analogy does not work.
A better analogy would be a watch. If you have a job that demands you know the exact time every hour. You dont need a Rolex, you could buy a watch for a single dollar that will tell the time.
Cell phones are another example. Most dont need a data plan and smart phone (obviously some do), but its a choice and they can charge what they want for that luxury.

Nobody needs to play golf. We are glad that so many want to enjoy the game that we enjoy, but its certainly not a need.

i can certainly understand golf is a luxury. There are too many people who dont play much as they want, dont play much at all, or even dont play period due to costs. Its like if you go the beach with the fam during the week and pay 5bucks to park and 4pp to get on the beach. Then on the weekend you pay 12 to park and 10pp to get on the beach. An amusement pak may be $30 weekday and $55 weekend. Perhaps skiing might cost $49 weekday yet $75 weekend. Etc, etc.... These are all luxuries and we dont have to do any of them.

These places (businesses) are taking advantage of the very fact that you want something but can only do it on the weekend. One doesnt have to go at all/any of these things and that is true. But it is also true because of this some dont go much at all while others dont go period. This is more than just good busines practice imo. There is greed involved here too. There is (by default) a misguided accpetable means that is nothing more than simply taking advantage of the fact that the masses can only do these things on a weekend most of the time. Even though its not a luxury your are still being price gouged (unethical imo). The average "joe' is being taken advantage of. If he wants a good time he must pay extra because he can only do it on the weekend. It may be a luxury he doesnt have to do but this accepted logic is still unethical imo.