Ben Hogan Golf - Can they survive?
texasgolfdude
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The Hogan leadership has majored in running golf companies into the ground.........sadly.
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I saw a small display at the PGA ss today and it was very dismal, I just can't get past the looks of their blade offering and after speaking to the sales rep neither can the general public. They get more negative comment about the looks than positive, and my question was unprovoked. Glad I'm not alone in my thoughts on the looks.
Pkielwa
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Ben Hogan Golf - Can they survive?
I'm curious of what the Hogan vision is. It really will all depend on what that is, as far as I'm concerned. If, say, they want to be in there with PXG, Fourteen, Scratch, or even Miura, then I don't see them getting that customer, the high-end shopper. With the marketing not being distance, that rules out the distance shopper, which if what we're being told is correct, that's most golfers. So take away the Callaway and TM shopper. That leaves Titleist, Ping, and maybe Cleveland peeps??? These folks may not be shopping distance as their primary factor.
Anyway, I think if they can get them in people's hands at big demo days where other OEMs are there, they have a chance. It's tough to have a large enough team of demo guys though... Need bodies and need a bunch of demo irons... Anyway, I hope they can. I like what they're putting out there and I'm going to try the PTx on the 18th at a big demo day.
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I'm curious of what the Hogan vision is. It really will all depend on what that is, as far as I'm concerned. If, say, they want to be in there with PXG, Fourteen, Scratch, or even Miura, then I don't see them getting that customer, the high-end shopper. With the marketing not being distance, that rules out the distance shopper, which if what we're being told is correct, that's most golfers. So take away the Callaway and TM shopper. That leaves Titleist, Ping, and maybe Cleveland peeps??? These folks may not be shopping distance as their primary factor.
Anyway, I think if they can get them in people's hands at big demo days where other OEMs are there, they have a chance. It's tough to have a large enough team of demo guys though... Need bodies and need a bunch of demo irons... Anyway, I hope they can. I like what they're putting out there and I'm going to try the PTx on the 18th at a big demo day.
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What does this mean exactly? Eidolon morphed into Scor and then to Hogan. I'm not seeing the backstory here.
texasgolfdude
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Great breakdown to the potential target markets, good stuff to think about.
Pkielwa
New member
Ben Hogan Golf - Can they survive?
One last thought. Age of golfer Hogan IMMEDIATELY appeals to... With the last Hogan iron release in about 2008, a golfer that knew the name, believed in the brand, and looked at Hogan as his/her "go-to" brand would probably have to have been in there 20's in 2008. So a likely demographic using age means they're also narrowed to those currently 30+, possibly late 30s-40. Not saying they can't or won't appeal to younger golfers right away, but they probably know that right off the bat, the people that will take a look without much selling to will be this small age group. The brand had a great name, but the younger golfer doesn't really know that with no personal experience.
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One last thought. Age of golfer Hogan IMMEDIATELY appeals to... With the last Hogan iron release in about 2008, a golfer that knew the name, believed in the brand, and looked at Hogan as his/her "go-to" brand would probably have to have been in there 20's in 2008. So a likely demographic using age means they're also narrowed to those currently 30+, possibly late 30s-40. Not saying they can't or won't appeal to younger golfers right away, but they probably know that right off the bat, the people that will take a look without much selling to will be this small age group. The brand had a great name, but the younger golfer doesn't really know that with no personal experience.
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The problem with the "Hogan" brand is that the name was out of the club market for almost a decade. Golfers seem loyal but they have moved on to other brands for a decade. The guys that are licensing "Hogan" are in their 50-60's. Guys who were beginning to play when Hogan won his last tourneys -- we're talking 50+ years. I think loyalists overestimated the market and the expense and difficulty and time it takes to basically re-build a brand from almost nonexistence. Good luck to them but unless they have really deep pockets or change strategy, it will be tough to survive.
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- #110
What strategy?
Mizuno for some reason is the first company to pop out as to what they would want to be like.
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- #113
No, what I mean is you said they needed to change their strategy". What strategy do they need to change from? What do you believe is their strategy right now?
Interesting breakdown here. I do see a TON of Titleist, Ping, Cleveland, Srixon, Mizuno irons around here so that doesn't strike me as a bad segment to try break into.
It will be important for Hogan to get their clubs in people's hands in a green-grass way I think, and they are already starting to do that. Look no further than what they are doing with THP.
Background: MBA, Former CPA, Former CFO, Attorney, 2 law degrees, General Counsel, involved in various client businesses and have dealt with entrepreneurs for 36 years.
First, I don't have all the answers and I have little knowledge of this company, so it's analysis based on what I see.
When I said "Exactly," I meant "What Strategy?" because I do not see one that is apparent for long term success.
Looked at their website and from experience, Hogan will send you email and you can fit yourself. Have not seen TV advertising so I assume they have little or none. Website indicates a Dealer can sign up but I saw no link where the consumer is directed to get fit for irons.
Looks as if (looks) they developed a product with the only marketing plan as website sales and marketing to golf geeks via online forums. They do not seem to have utilized private clubmakers. Those small makers with some success - Miura, Edel, even PXG, and small putter makers seems to utilize a network of professional clubmakers to gain "buzz" across the country. Miura and Edel can limit inventory to an extent because they build custom clubs and customers in that market recognize it will take a little bit of time for heads to arrive and the build to take place. I think it's easier for a Miura in some aspects since they have standard sets. Edel, like Hogan, makes any loft you want.
From the website, if they are making all of those lofts without bending, it seems a lot of inventory. I assume they have a system for limiting too much inventory. They have a V sole, but does one grind fit all?
Their main selling point seems to be "Ben Hogan" as a brand. I haven't seen a strong, compelling case for their clubs as to tech other than a lot of lofts and a one grind fits all V sole. I know they have new models, but the BIG OEMs have face cup, gel, 2-3 piece forgings, a variety of models to fit every golfer. They have traditional models and forgiving models. Hogan does not seem to make distance claims or much in the way of innovation -- I think they are selling an updated classic with an old name. Is that what the market or a viable segment of the market wants?
I just don't see where Hogan, other than the name stands out in the marketplace. And that name hasn't been used in a decade in clubs.
From my dealings with entrepreneurs, it's not unusual for them to rush the details of business with a very good product. They do not have the patience for careful planning. They wonder why it's not done yesterday, and so they do not wind up with a long term plan. They run businesses by the strength of their push-push, driven personality, and their ego gets in the way of self-examination, or they blame others if the "plan" is not working. The Hogan team seems to have had a lot of golf businesses that change every 5 years or so. Some might say they see new opportunities and take advantage of them. Others might say their then product was losing ground and they needed a new idea -- a change to get something else going before it too will fizzle.
It just doesn't look as if they've thought this through -- but that's typical of entrepreneurs. In general, they are authoritarian, driven, idea men that usually need someone else to do the details and manage a company to success. I think Hogan lacks a viable market foundation (from what I know).
I don't know what their strategy is or if they have any. As an older golfer I remember when that brand was a mark of quality and performance. I guess I'm am expecting the same from them now but I really don't know, probably just wishful thinking but I do know their new irons look the part and am very interested if they perform up to my memory. The appearance they have is outstanding in my opinion. They will certainly fall into a small brand category and if managed correctly, may survive. There is too much I don't know about producing and marketing golf clubs for me to have anything but a casual opinion. I hope they survive, I have lots a great memories of their brand and Mr. Hogan!!
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- #117
Ill be honest here and say that I think some of that is misinformed and searching. Does not make it not your take based on searching around, but my thought was saying a company has to change their strategy without actually knowing their strategy is tough.
Ill take a couple of these.
This is not accurate. For starters you are talking about Miura and Edel having been around for a long time (in comparison) and heck I wont get into the Edel backstory here, as its not the place, but anybody that thinks that is a model to follow in business needs to have a closer look over his last 10 years. We are not talking about a company with hundreds of employees that is spitting out millions of heads. We are talking about a small company, that makes the sets as they are ordered and keeps inventory at remarkably low levels and creates only as orders are placed currently. This company has been around for about 12 months with product. Nearly impossible to have a network of clubfitters in that time, but their network is doubling almost every month including this past month with the launch of a second iron. Lets also not forget that currently, the company has a single set of irons. Thats it. Coming now is a 2nd set and a hybrid that is already sold out as fast as they can make them.
Frankly that is no different than a lot of companies. To use your example, Miura is a name and marketing on a subjective thought that most wont see/feel. Edel is marketing custom fitting and precision. Ben Hogan has been marketing a story. Its not a story I love, but it is a story. That precision is gone in the game and that through their system and clubs precision can come back. That these distance clubs are not the answer for everybody and that while most brands are shifting away from small and sales numbers along with releases back that up, Hogan is embracing it. Then add the marketing of a sole that is unique, compared to most companies offering a similar sole throughout their lineup. Then add the marketing of being one of the only companies where every loft is available and if that is not a differentiator, I am not sure what is when compared to the rest of landscape.
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Based on the above, a golf company should never enter the market unless they either want to go immediately against large companies or go ultra small and have a network of fitters out before clubs are ready. Here are some brands that would not exist if they did that. KBS, OBAN, Grandura, Matrix, and I could go on and on and even include Edel in that statement. I used shaft companies since its a similar parallel in terms of fitting. Companies need to differentiate and that is exactly what Hogan is doing by introducing an iron segment most companies are moving away from (smaller), a lofting system that enables golfers to get what they want and custom builds for any golfer no matter the needs.
I just do not understand the idea of the necessity to "change their strategy" without seeing what their strategy is. Now people may not like TK or how he handled his previous brands, but I can tell people after having worked with all of them, Hogan is very different including the team in place. FWIW, Eidelon never went out of business as has been said in this thread. It morphed into SCOR, instead of launching a second product when an idea hit him. Rather than re-educate on a line, create a new line under the Eidolon company, which is what was done.
Then add that I think people are underselling the crew that is in place here. This is not a bunch of new people coming into the marketplace. These are people with decades of experience from some of the largest OEMs in golf. These are not entrepreneurs that are into the game and love shiny things like new gear. We are talking people that worked at Hogan, fantastic people from Adams (during their big run) that took a company from a single club and made them successful in a marketplace to compete with the big boys, before major changes hit the industry and an owner that was not prepared to go with those changes.
I dont have a crystal ball and dont know if they will make it, which is why this is a good thread. I think they do some things remarkably well for a new brand and others not so well. Now I say all of this and still say everybody can have their own opinion of the brand, but I want to bring facts to the discussion.
Its also why we convinced the brand to allow THPers to come into their HQ and ask them these very questions.
Ill take a couple of these.
This is not accurate. For starters you are talking about Miura and Edel having been around for a long time (in comparison) and heck I wont get into the Edel backstory here, as its not the place, but anybody that thinks that is a model to follow in business needs to have a closer look over his last 10 years. We are not talking about a company with hundreds of employees that is spitting out millions of heads. We are talking about a small company, that makes the sets as they are ordered and keeps inventory at remarkably low levels and creates only as orders are placed currently. This company has been around for about 12 months with product. Nearly impossible to have a network of clubfitters in that time, but their network is doubling almost every month including this past month with the launch of a second iron. Lets also not forget that currently, the company has a single set of irons. Thats it. Coming now is a 2nd set and a hybrid that is already sold out as fast as they can make them.
Frankly that is no different than a lot of companies. To use your example, Miura is a name and marketing on a subjective thought that most wont see/feel. Edel is marketing custom fitting and precision. Ben Hogan has been marketing a story. Its not a story I love, but it is a story. That precision is gone in the game and that through their system and clubs precision can come back. That these distance clubs are not the answer for everybody and that while most brands are shifting away from small and sales numbers along with releases back that up, Hogan is embracing it. Then add the marketing of a sole that is unique, compared to most companies offering a similar sole throughout their lineup. Then add the marketing of being one of the only companies where every loft is available and if that is not a differentiator, I am not sure what is when compared to the rest of landscape.
_____________________________________
Based on the above, a golf company should never enter the market unless they either want to go immediately against large companies or go ultra small and have a network of fitters out before clubs are ready. Here are some brands that would not exist if they did that. KBS, OBAN, Grandura, Matrix, and I could go on and on and even include Edel in that statement. I used shaft companies since its a similar parallel in terms of fitting. Companies need to differentiate and that is exactly what Hogan is doing by introducing an iron segment most companies are moving away from (smaller), a lofting system that enables golfers to get what they want and custom builds for any golfer no matter the needs.
I just do not understand the idea of the necessity to "change their strategy" without seeing what their strategy is. Now people may not like TK or how he handled his previous brands, but I can tell people after having worked with all of them, Hogan is very different including the team in place. FWIW, Eidelon never went out of business as has been said in this thread. It morphed into SCOR, instead of launching a second product when an idea hit him. Rather than re-educate on a line, create a new line under the Eidolon company, which is what was done.
Then add that I think people are underselling the crew that is in place here. This is not a bunch of new people coming into the marketplace. These are people with decades of experience from some of the largest OEMs in golf. These are not entrepreneurs that are into the game and love shiny things like new gear. We are talking people that worked at Hogan, fantastic people from Adams (during their big run) that took a company from a single club and made them successful in a marketplace to compete with the big boys, before major changes hit the industry and an owner that was not prepared to go with those changes.
I dont have a crystal ball and dont know if they will make it, which is why this is a good thread. I think they do some things remarkably well for a new brand and others not so well. Now I say all of this and still say everybody can have their own opinion of the brand, but I want to bring facts to the discussion.
Its also why we convinced the brand to allow THPers to come into their HQ and ask them these very questions.
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Something I've noticed recently and wondered if I'm alone or if I'm missing something.
There has been a good amount of social media presence being put out there by THP'ers but I've seen no acknowledgement or interaction from the Hogan company regarding those.
Regardless of the reason, I think it's a big mistake and a missed opportunity on their part. I do see tweets and FB posts from them so I know they have daily presence out there....but lack of interaction is disappointing to me.
There has been a good amount of social media presence being put out there by THP'ers but I've seen no acknowledgement or interaction from the Hogan company regarding those.
Regardless of the reason, I think it's a big mistake and a missed opportunity on their part. I do see tweets and FB posts from them so I know they have daily presence out there....but lack of interaction is disappointing to me.
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- #119
I think this is a mistake as well, although it has increased quite a bit. Small team to me is still no excuse to not engage in what is for them free marketing. Although I will say in the last couple of weeks, at least with the THP Event and those posting about it, its definitely there. My @ section of the timeline is filled with likes and RTs from them and THPers.
People can dream, and sometimes dreams come true.
Look, people don't pay me to be a cheerleader. I find holes and repair the holes. I pointed out a few critical holes.
I'll stick to what I've seen from people, entrepreneurs, and business in 35 years, and Koehler who seems a great entrepreneur, but no one product has had staying power. Maybe this is his home run.
In sum,
I wish them well - but from a marketing viewpoint, they have a shallow foundation. From a club viewpoint, they offer a classic update and a legendary name that hasn't been used in a decade. Hope they have deep pockets and hope they have a strong management team that can push against the entrepreneur.
I've been there, done that. I know. Do you know?
Look, people don't pay me to be a cheerleader. I find holes and repair the holes. I pointed out a few critical holes.
I'll stick to what I've seen from people, entrepreneurs, and business in 35 years, and Koehler who seems a great entrepreneur, but no one product has had staying power. Maybe this is his home run.
In sum,
I wish them well - but from a marketing viewpoint, they have a shallow foundation. From a club viewpoint, they offer a classic update and a legendary name that hasn't been used in a decade. Hope they have deep pockets and hope they have a strong management team that can push against the entrepreneur.
I've been there, done that. I know. Do you know?
mikedean441
6X HOF
Late to the game.
Survive...yes, for awhile until the well runs dry
succeed-No, long term they are a small fish and relatively unknown (compared to the big players), you are essentially starting from scratch in a market that has very difficult barriers to entry. The average golf consumer has no inkling who they are.
Survive...yes, for awhile until the well runs dry
succeed-No, long term they are a small fish and relatively unknown (compared to the big players), you are essentially starting from scratch in a market that has very difficult barriers to entry. The average golf consumer has no inkling who they are.
The Hogan stuff is in some stores, and I've seen them at a demo day up here in the Northeast - and there were a good amount of people trying out the irons. I think it's more a matter of baby steps, with them being a new entry into the market. For what it's worth, i've seen the Hogan stuff at exactly the same number of places as I've seen the Srixon irons (1). I would imagine Hogan's inventory control scheme is similar to what you mention for Edel and Miura - every set is considered custom. I think maybe they had one set of irons in inventory at the store.
Hi -- had not seen them in the nearby PGATSS but was wondering when they'd find their way into a store. We've seen this with Scratch, Miura in limited circumstances, and Edel in PGATSS with a limited number of grinds in wedges, and non-custom Torque Balanced putters. My question is to the custom clubmakers - I would have built that network as club development was taking place or prototypes in hand. It is an inexpensive way to gain national buzz.
As I said, wish them well. My experience is that details escape the entrepreneur and a great management team must push against the founder to help longevity. Of course, you must have sizzle with the steak - PXG has Parsons and former Ping engineers, Miura has mystical Japanese forging, Edel has custom everything and a miraculous sole grind; Hogan has a legendary name that they took out of Callaway's mothballs, and look at Nicklaus -- he has/had a hard time selling clubs. I think Hogan needs more sizzle with the steak - more than a V sole. Hope they find it or hard sell the steak they have -- Hogan -- with more story. People love a story - make it exciting and interesting. Cause some marketing controversy to get your name out there.
How about marketing taglines as in: Hogan -- A name so Great that Callaway Feared Using It.
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They have one huge thing going for them right now with these releases of the name and product. Me. Me being the one that played Hogans back in high school and college. Me. The guy who had to get a part time job over the summer months to purchase those Apex's for the fall season. Me. Who remembers those clubs like the back side of my hand even today. Me. Who now is 45, and remembers those high school days with my Hogans and who now has their own money to spend on those clubs again.
Everyone use to play Hogans at some point back in HS/College. Now those "me's" have careers and the money to spend. If they can somehow break into this segment again it would be a good start IMHO. Take me back Hogan..........take me back.