What is Moment of Inertia? How does it help you? Is there a magic number that makes something perform better or offer more? Where did 10K MOI come from? These are all questions that have been brought up since the beginning of 2024 on the THP Forum and social media.
Earlier this month, we took a detailed look at the new Mizuno ST-Max Driver. Breaking down how it was constructed and what you might expect out of the performance. What is the MOI of this driver?
Rather than explain it, we sought out one of the industry experts to walk through what is real and what isn’t and what you can look for in a driver. In this video, Chris Voshall from Mizuno Golf goes over the magic number of 10K MOI and if it matters?
With all of the buzz words and marketing that has been done around 10K and MOI, after watching Chris Voshall go over the ST-MAX and MOI in general, where do you stand on it?
Marketing buzz words or something that you are searching for to help your game?
For more information on Mizuno Golf or any of their products, check out their website at www.mizunogolf.com.
[QUOTE=”David7, post: 12214719, member: 69607″]
My Gen 6 from last year is 5k, can’t imagine how forgiving 10k must be. I’d have to hit it to know though.
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It was more than 5K.
If you get a chance and watch the video, Chris breaks down that measurement well.
[QUOTE=”JB, post: 12214744, member: 3″]
I dont think so. There are ways to do it that some people simply dont care about. Slow it down, make it spinnier, have it be more upright. Face closure is the recurring theme I hear from so many going back to the PGA Show thread. Chris was the latest to touch on it here.
Build to build performance, rather than chasing a number is what I think most golfers would really want in the end. If it gets there number wise? Great. But not without the sacrifices that are currently in place for a lot of golfers.
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Yeah, that is a better way to voice my thoughts. Square was really all about MOI as well right? That was how designers figured out how to get to 5900 (Nike Sasquatch) first. Then as they understood what that really meant, they dialed in the shape and things returned to a more acceptable visual pallet while maintaining high MOI..
That was a refreshingly down to earth explanation of how MOI is achieved. Great listen!
[QUOTE=”Templet0n, post: 12214751, member: 53139″]
Yeah, that is a better way to voice my thoughts. Square was really all about MOI as well right? That was how designers figured out how to get to 5900 (Nike Sasquatch) first. Then as they understood what that really meant, they dialed in the shape and things returned to a more acceptable visual pallet while maintaining high MOI..
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Correct. And I had an idea for a square driver article a bit ago and it hasnt gotten done yet.
With square drivers, the sacrifice was a few things, with one of the biggest being aerodynamics. They were slow. Combine that with less traditional looks, etc. Now those in the market for that, didnt really care as much about offset or upright, so may not have struggled with those things, but without it those drivers would also be very hard on face closure.
That was a great video. He does a phenomenal job of breaking things down to understand them. Thanks for sharing that!
[QUOTE=”JB, post: 12214760, member: 3″]
Correct. And I had an idea for a square driver article a bit ago and it hasnt gotten done yet.
With square drivers, the sacrifice was a few things, with one of the biggest being aerodynamics. They were slow. Combine that with less traditional looks, etc. Now those in the market for that, didnt really care as much about offset or upright, so may not have struggled with those things, but without it those drivers would also be very hard on face closure.
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interested to read that article.. It is interesting that square and triangle shaped drivers all came and went in about a 3 year span..
[QUOTE=”Templet0n, post: 12214773, member: 53139″]
interested to read that article.. It is interesting that square and triangle shaped drivers all came and went in about a 3 year span..
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I had a fantastic conversation a few years ago with Tom Olsavsky about that very thing. He was the creator of the triangle version which Taylormade put out. I think it would be a good chance to revisit it.
#MOIjacking :ROFLMAO:
Very informative and a really easy to understand breakdown of MOI. A lot of products have this sweet spot of good enough versus number chasing. I have not hit a 10K driver as of yet but I have seen the Qi10 Max and that shape of the head just isn’t appealing at all. Really glad Vosh broke it down the way he did.
[QUOTE=”echico, post: 12214783, member: 6774″]
[SIZE=6][B]#MOIjacking[/B][/SIZE] :ROFLMAO:
Very informative and a really easy to understand breakdown of MOI. A lot of products have this sweet spot of good enough versus number chasing. I have not hit a 10K driver as of yet but I have seen the Qi10 and that shape of the head just isn’t appealing at all. Really glad Vosh broke it down the way he did.
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I kind of hate you right now for me not having done that first. ?
[QUOTE=”JB, post: 12214780, member: 3″]
I had a fantastic conversation a few years ago with Tom Olsavsky about that very thing. He was the creator of the triangle version which Taylormade put out. I think it would be a good chance to revisit it.
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This one? Saw this at a store the other day in the used bin. I remember these when they came out. Super expensive if I remember correct..
[ATTACH type=”full”]9250449[/ATTACH][ATTACH type=”full”]9250450[/ATTACH]
[IMG alt=”Boom GIF”]https://media3.giphy.com/media/dpnfPvaCIHBrW/200.gif[/IMG]
[QUOTE=”Templet0n, post: 12214794, member: 53139″]
This one? Saw this at a store the other day in the used bin. I remember these when they came out. Super expensive if I remember correct..
[ATTACH type=”full” alt=”IMG_4202.jpeg”]9250449[/ATTACH][ATTACH type=”full” alt=”IMG_4203.jpeg”]9250450[/ATTACH]
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How is this memory for you?
MSRP was $600 for driver, over $350 for FW Woods and $175 an iron for steel.
17 years ago and we were just doing research and stuff for THP beginning the following year.
[QUOTE=”dunkjez, post: 12214662, member: 15068″]
Chris explained it well but it’s still all marketing. “10K not that great, but 9.5K is the best because that’s what we’re doing.” When Mizuno does 10K, they’ll just say they figured out how to reduce spin and improve looks.
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He explained the trade offs needed to achieve 10k and explained why he felt those trade offs weren’t worth being able to make the 10k claim.
Call it marketing if you like, but it’s honest marketing and not pushing hype.
[QUOTE=”JB, post: 12214802, member: 3″]
How is this memory for you?
MSRP was $600 for driver, over $350 for FW Woods and $175 an iron for steel.
17 years ago and we were just doing research and stuff for THP beginning the following year.
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haha. That is mostly todays rates. lol. I don’t recall these doing very well though. This was right in the middle of the best years for some other companies. I forget the number but that god-awful Titleist triangle driver was the same year.. But the equipment those years were fun!! It was like the wild wild west.. That is when tech and numbers really started to enter the golf scene.
He always does a fantastic job at explaining what the thought processes were for club designs and explaining the tech that goes into them. This was a really good explanation of MOI and the trade-offs for reaching 10k. I imagine the discussions at the Victory Cup will be insane!
[QUOTE=”Templet0n, post: 12214735, member: 53139″]
I wonder if 10K will be like[B][SIZE=4] square drivers.[/SIZE][/B]
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[QUOTE=”Templet0n, post: 12214735, member: 53139″]
Something that happens for a bit then goes away as there are better ways to get forgiveness other than chasing a number..
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I had one of those! :ROFLMAO:
It was a Callaway, I believe.
[QUOTE=”jdtox, post: 12214359, member: 5944″]
What a fantastic video. So well explained. Everyone can learn a lot from this.
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It’s simply amazing what I learned in less than 4 minutes. This was so helpful to my undersatnding of MOI and drivers. I actually took notes.
What a good video, my first reaction to all the 10k stuff when it was coming out was right along these lines, what were they giving up to chase a number! As an engineer I always enjoy Vosh’s talks, he has the knack to talk about engineering concepts in a way that most can understand, and there are a lot of engineers out there that can’t do that.
I appreciate how Chris made that very easy to understand 10k fold
Never really understood what MOI meant and I have a way better understanding of it now.
I remember the discussion point during the PGA show. Love that video can back up that discussion as well!
Great video. Vosh explained the concepts so well that even I could understand them.
I think that most of the OEM’s talk about MOI as being advantageous in one way or another in their clubs or at least certain clubs that they are selling. I don’t know much about the 10K stuff, but I can tell you that my G400 MAX was one fantastic fairway finder and Ping touted it at the time the highest MOI club available. I won’t dispute that based on my drives.
[QUOTE=”Parrot, post: 12215200, member: 48815″]
Great video. Vosh explained the concepts so well that even I could understand them.
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He’s got a way with words for sure
Would it be fair to say that drivers in the 10k realm can be considered game improvement drivers, given that they have to sacrifice in other areas in order to achieve MOI?
The touching on how it is not as simple as moving weight, but what other dominoes fall when 1 thing changes is fascinating. Changing club design and tech and having it work is very involved. Love hearing more about all of it.
Great video by Vosh, I now know a lot more about MOI than I did 5 minutes ago. I love how he explains it in very simple terms without going off into the weeds.
one of my favorite videos we’ve had recently on THP.
[QUOTE=”dAS0, post: 12215451, member: 10378″]
The touching on how it is not as simple as moving weight, but what other dominoes fall when 1 thing changes is fascinating. Changing club design and tech and having it work is very involved. Love hearing more about all of it.
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When we had the opportunity to talk to the club designers / R&D guys at Callaway last December, it was amazing to learn about how even very small changes in one aspect of design affect and interact with other aspects. As Vosh said in the video, it’s a matter of balancing the involved trade-offs to reach the best overall result, not just chasing numbers.
[QUOTE=”BigMac, post: 12215468, member: 3386″]
When we had the opportunity to talk to the club designers / R&D guys at Callaway last December, it was amazing to learn about how even very small changes in one aspect of design affect and interact with other aspects. As Vosh said in the video, it’s a matter of balancing the involved trade-offs to reach the best overall result, not just chasing numbers.
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…and on a maybe somewhat unrelated note, it also helps explain why AI is a valuable part of club design and not just a marketing buzzword. Using AI, they can virtually model the changes and have a pretty good idea of what the effects will be, rather than having to build actual physical models over and over again as the design evolves.
An educated man educating the masses about some sales buzz word short comings. Love it.
[QUOTE=”David7, post: 12215446, member: 69607″]
Would it be fair to say that drivers in the 10k realm can be considered game improvement drivers, given that they have to sacrifice in other areas in order to achieve MOI?
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It would completely depend on the player due to face closure and spin.
I am duck hooking 10k drivers in my testing lately. Can’t wait for the USGA to open up the limit so I can get me sum 13k shiznit. Hi pushes all day Bro
The question in my mind is.. Can you make super high MOI and have the driver be low spin and fast? I am sure you can, it is just really really really hard.. So, how “could” you do it? Could someone create a 10K LS??
I watch this video this morning. It’s great to hear real talk from smart people in the golf industry.
I always thought 10k was a number for a numbers sake. Is there merit in high moi? Absolutely. But everything in club design is balancing tradeoffs. Especially Driver.
[QUOTE=”Templet0n, post: 12215545, member: 53139″]
The question in my mind is.. Can you make super high MOI and have the driver be low spin and fast? I am sure you can, it is just really really really hard.. So, how “could” you do it? Could someone create a 10K LS??
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Yes. But as Yags said in retort to similar line of questioning…would you pay for it? Not just money but esthetics AND then are you asking it to comply with rules?
[QUOTE=”mtbloco, post: 12215589, member: 53632″]
Yes. But as Yags said in retort to similar line of questioning…would you pay for it? Not just money but esthetics AND then are you asking it to comply with rules?
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Yeah. I went down a similar thought process.
Great video. I was trying to figure out how the 10k became a thing as it feels like just 2 years ago that OEM’s were bragging they had crossed the 5k barrier in MOI in drivers and the 5900 was the limit. Things make a lot more sense to me now.
[QUOTE=”Templet0n, post: 12215545, member: 53139″]
The question in my mind is.. Can you make super high MOI and have the driver be low spin and fast? I am sure you can, it is just really really really hard.. So, how “could” you do it? Could someone create a 10K LS??
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I mean, isn’t that kinda what Ping is saying theirs is?
[QUOTE=”PhillyV, post: 12214411, member: 6890″]
My question about MOI is are all OEM’s measuring it the same?
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Seriously? MOI is a mathematical formula. There is no way to fudge it.
[QUOTE=”DNice26, post: 12215658, member: 45706″]
I mean, isn’t that kinda what Ping is saying theirs is?
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I just watched 6 YouTube reviews comparing the ping 10K to the QI Max, and in 2 of the videos featuring slower swingers they were pretty equal in terms of spin. in four of them all faster swingers the ping was lower by about 400 to 500 RPMs. so if any 10 K drivers are claiming lower spin, it seems to ping is trending that way.
Great video and explanation by Vosh. It doesn’t matter to me in and of itself but like other limits/targets like 460cc it creates interesting innovation and discussion
[QUOTE=”willplaysgolf, post: 12215737, member: 61852″]
Great video and explanation by Vosh. It doesn’t matter to me in and of itself but like other limits/targets like 460cc it creates interesting innovation and discussion
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One of my favorite parts of a video like this, is the ability THPers have to get to play golf and spend a few days with the people like Chris and ask more and learn more at our events
[QUOTE=”erock9174, post: 12215699, member: 7797″]
I just watched 6 YouTube reviews comparing the ping 10K to the QI Max, and in 2 of the videos featuring slower swingers they were pretty equal in terms of spin. in four of them all faster swingers the ping was lower by about 400 to 500 RPMs. so if any 10 K drivers are claiming lower spin, it seems to ping is trending that way.
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My buddy wanted me to go with him to buy a new driver a few weeks ago and he was pretty set on buying the Pink 10k as he had hit it well a few weeks before. While we were there I talked him into basically hitting everything and he ended up in a Callaway Smoke Max D. He was consistently getting a better launch angle, lower spin and about 20 more yards of carry along with a considerably better dispersion pattern.
[QUOTE=”Slowmo, post: 12215792, member: 67660″]
My buddy wanted me to go with him to buy a new driver a few weeks ago and he was pretty set on buying the Pink 10k as he had hit it well a few weeks before. While we were there I talked him into basically hitting everything and he ended up in a Callaway Smoke Max D. He was consistently getting a better launch angle, lower spin and about 20 more yards of carry along with a considerably better dispersion pattern.
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Don’t recall the smoke max D being 10k
10k is a lot. Really don’t care one way or another but as I look at the various inputs from Chris and others, forgiveness is excellent in these new drivers and I’m one who doesn’t slap the center every time so 10k probably fits me well.
[QUOTE=”erock9174, post: 12215801, member: 7797″]
Don’t recall the smoke max D being 10k
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I don’t think it is, or if it is Callaway hasn’t advertised it as such. The point I was trying to make is that just because something is 10k doesn’t mean it’s the best, even for a pretty average golfer.
What he explained in the video pretty Much translated to what I saw in demos. The 10k heads were more stable on off center hits. That said there also a distance loss compared to the company standard head. is it hype? In my mind, yes. Highly MOI drivers are more stable, but there’s a point of diminishing returns. Have to find that happy medium that works for you.
[QUOTE=”Slowmo, post: 12215825, member: 67660″]
I don’t think it is, or if it is Callaway hasn’t advertised it as such. The point I was trying to make is that just because something is 10k doesn’t mean it’s the best, even for a pretty average golfer.
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True. It will always boil down to a proper fit.
[QUOTE=”JB, post: 12215775, member: 3″]
One of my favorite parts of a video like this, is the ability THPers have to get to play golf and spend a few days with the people like Chris and ask more and learn more at our events
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For sure. At the Morgan Cup I felt like I was getting a version of this video from like 3 (or more) years in the future
[QUOTE=”willplaysgolf, post: 12215853, member: 61852″]
For sure. At the Morgan Cup I felt like I was getting a version of this video from like 3 (or more) years in the future
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Without a doubt having access is what we love so much for THPers. Those who’s have been fortunate enough to spend time with Chris from this video at the Victory Cup or Yags from the Morgan Cup or fill in the blank others, you know you are getting transparency and honesty and not marketing but rather a full look at golf equipment and coming away smarter