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Grooveless Irons and Testing

SuperStroke
AB_from_Oz

AB_from_Oz

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Hey all,

I originally posted this in the Vision Ball Review thread to show the guys the irons we are currently testing and how grooves/no grooves effect the performance of golf balls and also ball longevity.

A few people in the Vision thread asked me to create it as a seperate thread and to include some more images so this is what I have done.

I must admit I was the biggest skeptic when I first saw these irons and I actually didn't think they would work in the slightest. The results have been extremely interesting and the testing continues.

I thought I would open to the THP site to discuss, so if you have any opinions, questions or suggestions please don't hesitate to post and we can discuss them in here...

AB

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Where did you get those heads?
 
1. Those look amazing!

2. Cant blame the skepticism, seems like it would take alot to get a ball to get good spin on/around the greens.
 
Very interesting, I really don't know what to think...
 
Jman215 said:
Very interesting, I really don't know what to think...
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Same here. Can't wait to hear more, but don't really know enough to eve make an educated guess at the results.
 
I have forwarded this to two of the better known club creators of the last few decades to get their thoughts. Because I certainly have a few of my own.

1. Out of rough, these would cause major issues for golfers in my opinion. It has been proven time after time that grooves help increase spin where grass gets in the way of the ball. Spin is a major part of launch angle as well as ball flight.

2. Outside of pure curiosity, what is the reason for a grooveless iron?

3. While grooves on woods are purely aesthetic, grooves on irons and wedges have purpose. Hence the reason there are rules about them now as they have been proven effective. Outside of loft, how can one recreate the launch without the grooves on full swings?

I will await the response from the people we have asked, but these are the 1st 3 questions that come to mind.
 
Those look awsome!!
 
JB said:
I have forwarded this to two of the better known club creators of the last few decades to get their thoughts. Because I certainly have a few of my own.

1. Out of rough, these would cause major issues for golfers in my opinion. It has been proven time after time that grooves help increase spin where grass gets in the way of the ball. Spin is a major part of launch angle as well as ball flight.

2. Outside of pure curiosity, what is the reason for a grooveless iron?

3. While grooves on woods are purely aesthetic, grooves on irons and wedges have purpose. Hence the reason there are rules about them now as they have been proven effective. Outside of loft, how can one recreate the launch without the grooves on full swings?

I will await the response from the people we have asked, but these are the 1st 3 questions that come to mind.
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Sums up my thoughts perfectly.
 
I talk to a guy who is an expert, and not a self proclaimed expert, a guy that tests equipment for manufacturing companies. You will be losing some serious spin out of the rough, but according to him, out of good lies the majority of spin has to do with your attack angle. Essentially, the results will be mixed depending on the lie and club, but the long and mid irons out of good lies won't cause to much of a change.
 
Okay:

Where did I get them? The brilliant man in charge of Vision Golf balls (Boz from Oz) obtained them from a club builder overseas and asked for my thoughts and asked me to test them and see what I thought...

Are you testing wedges or complete iron set? We originally had a set of heads 5-PW to test, and after the results I achieved I was interested in finding out what they do closer to the green, as I don't use PW around the green I have requested if we can get a LW to trial to see spin comparisons

Sketicism and Spin: Okay they were my initial thoughts also... No grooves, how can they possibly spin the ball? However I have had no problems with creating spin off these irons, they are not noticeably longer, they are no shorter and I have found on full shots they actually are spinning more. I couldn't believe it so I did some research...

The function of grooves on irons: Much like car tyres they are to filter away water, dirt and grass from the contact surface. As Barney Adams of Adams Golf stated in an article I read "Grooves don't create spin, they are "Garbage Cans" filtering away trash". It is a clean surface that applies spin to the golf ball.

So then you think in terms of racing cars and slick tyres, why do they increase performance?

Aesthetics Yeah really cool and techie looking head. No sun glare (although it is winter here!) as they have a central zone that is like a matt grey not a polished metal.
 
JB said:
I have forwarded this to two of the better known club creators of the last few decades to get their thoughts. Because I certainly have a few of my own.

1. Out of rough, these would cause major issues for golfers in my opinion. It has been proven time after time that grooves help increase spin where grass gets in the way of the ball. Spin is a major part of launch angle as well as ball flight.

2. Outside of pure curiosity, what is the reason for a grooveless iron?

3. While grooves on woods are purely aesthetic, grooves on irons and wedges have purpose. Hence the reason there are rules about them now as they have been proven effective. Outside of loft, how can one recreate the launch without the grooves on full swings?

I will await the response from the people we have asked, but these are the 1st 3 questions that come to mind.
Click to expand...

Great post JB...

1. I totally agree with what you are saying and I did initially have the same suspicions when I first used them but I put them in "flyer" lies and I hit them head to head with my grooved blades and found no descernable difference in performance

(Can I add I have no affliation with this clubhead and all my findings are purely from my independant testing of them. I am not being paid to test, it was just an interesting opportunity I was presented with.)

2. Why? Okay from my point of view and Boz from Oz, our intial interest in testing them was their effect of the golf ball in terms of wear and durability and how they effect ball performance. This has been a positive aspect of the testing on my behalf as there is no ball shearing or damage. This has enabled my to have my golf ball hold optimal performance for longer and also during a hole. With these I don't have the worry about a cut ball during a hole effecting shot performance. Also between shots I have found it is just a wipe clean and continue play. No need to clean out the grooves.

As to why create a grooveless iron, I can only speculate. Be interesting if the manufacturer comes passed to give a definitive answer. Great ball to club surface area contact? Also read the other day while doing my own research that with groove and ball contact there is a mechanical interlocking effect like a cog wheel which actually slows the resultant spin rate. It is an interesting concept.

3. Why have the grooves proven to be effective though? Filtering material away from the surface. Once again I can only speculate mate, so will be interested to hear the answers though...

Interesting when we talk grooveless wood faces though as being from long drive, creating low spin launch conditions was amazingly important. I did my own research a little while ago with a group of handicap golfers and their driver launch conditions. Even when the face was grooveless (as all essentially are) I found that they created very high spin rates off this type of face. The was a product of a steep angle of attack into impact. I find it interesting then that a grooveless wood face with a low loft still produces spin rates that are equivalent to a low handicapper hitting a grooved face 6 iron due to angle of attack.

Definitely some interesting topics that need to be researched further to get definitive answers....

Thanks for your input
 
I'd be super interested in seeing some launch monitor data on these clubs.
 
Seems a bit strange, interested to see what comes out of this.
 
How does playing in a wet environment effect the performance?

To answer your question about racing slicks.
The soft compound heats up and becomes tacky which helps create traction. You will notice that when doing slow laps, the driver are constantly make zig zags to keep the tires warm or else they will lose some control. They dont use those tires when it is wet out. Such as this year's F1 in montreal.
 
Quite interesting looking.
 
The tire comparison doesn't make sense. Slicks are better ties because in dry weather they have more surface area vs channels (that only serve to whisk water away to increase surface area on the road and not on the water on the road).

But the grooves on the club face are more then that. Because the golf ball deforms when hit they actually catch the shell and create traction causing more spin. A more apt comparison would be tires with spikes. Which would cause way more traction then tires with grooves, but would destroy the road (like we destroy the cover on balls) and thus can't use them legally.

And I'm not saying they're better or worse. Just that clearly the grooves on a club do more then whisk away water/crap. Because they grip even in perfectly dry conditions due to the deformity of the ball's outer layer getting caught in them.
 
This is nuts. I hope to see some pictures on the course. I dont get how you are getting similar spin, but I guess ill have to take your word for it.
 
m-910 said:
To answer your question about racing slicks.
The soft compound heats up and becomes tacky which helps create traction. You will notice that when doing slow laps, the driver are constantly make zig zags to keep the tires warm or else they will lose some control. They dont use those tires when it is wet out. Such as this year's F1 in montreal.
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That's just purely for heat to melt them and even though out and make them more apt to creating surface tension due to flexibility. Even non-heated slicks are better traction in dry conditions then channeled tires. But yeah, when they get hot even more so.
Slicks are bad in wet weather because of hydroplaning.
 
These just look so odd!! I agree with JB and others, I can't see how the spin rate would be maintained...but I am interested to see. Is it possible to get some side by side launch monitor data on you hitting normal 6 iron and then the grooveless 6 to compare?
 
This is highly interesting. I would really like to hit these myself a few times. I have to agree with everyone too, they look so odd...

Tappin' away from my DROIDX.
 
liquidrage said:
The tire comparison doesn't make sense. Slicks are better ties because in dry weather they have more surface area vs channels (that only serve to whisk water away to increase surface area on the road and not on the water on the road).

But the grooves on the club face are more then that. Because the golf ball deforms when hit they actually catch the shell and create traction causing more spin. A more apt comparison would be tires with spikes. Which would cause way more traction then tires with grooves, but would destroy the road (like we destroy the cover on balls) and thus can't use them legally.

And I'm not saying they're better or worse. Just that clearly the grooves on a club do more then whisk away water/crap. Because they grip even in perfectly dry conditions due to the deformity of the ball's outer layer getting caught in them.
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Basically this is what I was thinking. If they didn't I wouldn't have scuffed up as many Nike's back in the day as I did with my old Vokey.
 
TripleBogieTim said:
These just look so odd!! I agree with JB and others, I can't see how the spin rate would be maintained...but I am interested to see. Is it possible to get some side by side launch monitor data on you hitting normal 6 iron and then the grooveless 6 to compare?
Click to expand...

Absolutely it is possible, I will see what I can do...
 
This is awesome and interesting, not in a million years would I have ever thought about irons without grooves, I think they look cool.
 
Trout Bum said:
This is awesome and interesting, not in a million years would I have ever thought about irons without grooves, I think they look cool.
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I think a lot of golf equipment looks cool, but I really don't see the advantage in these clubs other than the grooveless clubs not scuffing up your ball. Interesting none the less.
 
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