Loft jacking vs. score jacking?

[McLovin]

So VANITY CLUBS then???

That's a bit harsh.

Feel good clubs sound better. Lol

i'd be lying if i said my own ego doesn't get in the way sometimes. but i'm of the opinion that i am not and never will be good enough to brag about any part of my game. lots of somebodies in lots of somewheres can kick my a$$ on the course without breaking a sweat.

ultimately i'm still of the opinion that it just doesn't matter. if someone's bragging is that annoying to me, a simple solution is to never tee it up with that person again. life is too short.

 

[echico]

Feel Good dynamic! I like it. I suppose the opposite would be less-than-true? Oh! 'RETRO dynamic!

Wait you have to use modern technology to measure all that so it is automatically wrong.

 

[Cruskater]

I think it can lead to the occasional wounded ego for a minute, but in reality, who cares. I care about my own game.

I remember there was a random guy, slightly older than me paired up with us a few years ago when I had the old rogues. He was disheartened that my 30* 7 iron was going 175 and his Titleist blade 7 iron was going about 160 considering he was a good stick and our drives were of similar length (but not width haha mine were 20 yards right of his). He made a comment about "at least you can't hold greens with those irons."

After switching to the Apex Pro's I knew I would lose some distance simply from the weaker lofts, but I hoped that the AI flash face would make some of it up. I definitely had a moment when I had the wounded ego over my own lofts. But with the feel and control, got over that pretty quickly! For reference, my new 7 iron is 33* with a carry of about 160 and a total just under 170.

 

[Canadan]

I think it can lead to the occasional wounded ego for a minute, but in reality, who cares. I care about my own game.

I remember there was a random guy, slightly older than me paired up with us a few years ago when I had the old rogues. He was disheartened that my 30* 7 iron was going 175 and his Titleist blade 7 iron was going about 160 considering he was a good stick and our drives were of similar length (but not width haha mine were 20 yards right of his). He made a comment about "at least you can't hold greens with those irons."

After switching to the Apex Pro's I knew I would lose some distance simply from the weaker lofts, but I hoped that the AI flash face would make some of it up. I definitely had a moment when I had the wounded ego over my own lofts. But with the feel and control, got over that pretty quickly! For reference, my new 7 iron is 33* with a carry of about 160 and a total just under 170.

Imagine being that emotionally invested in some random person's iron distances that you have to find their flaws to make yourself feel good hahahahahaha

That's so pathetic.

 

[jmix18]

But it's about the same scores from different tees. And the same yardage with different 7 irons. And how people react to them and why.

That's such an interesting concept to me. Why peeps care about any of that doesn't make sense to me. Unless we're playing for competition reasons, what does it matter what you use or shoot from a different tee box than I do? Or if your 7 iron is 32 degrees and mine is 34 degrees?

 

[JB]

The handicap system makes the two things being talked about in the analogy "different", and no one but you is talking about drivers, but otherwise yeah.

Golf clubs are golf clubs. Singling out one segment about distance and not talking about the others is fine...But it doesnt change that they are all tools in the bag designed for the same thing. Why loft is what needs a system in irons because someone is upset that someone else hits it far or short, but only that segment is interesting to some I guess.

When you factor in actual loft at impact, there are virtually no amateur golfers playing the stated loft and haven't over the course of time at actual impact.

I would and will NEVER diminish someone shooting even par on any set of tees (this website is built on that), but nobody would assume that makes them a scratch golfer. Up until recently they even had a distance requirement in for that. The course index takes care of that and the course doesnt care what clubs someone uses.

 

[jdtox]

 

[OldandStiff]

Imagine being that emotionally invested in some random person's iron distances that you have to find their flaws to make yourself feel good hahahahahaha

That's so pathetic.

To be serious for half a second, how far you hit a club is an actual estimation tool used by the industry (sadly, and often quite poorly partly due to club differences), and advertising how far, or how much further you will hit something is pretty much a founding tenet of golf marketing. We are surrounded by it. And people naturally compare themselves to others, their former self, etc. It's part of how people judge themselves, others, their progress even. It's a number that exists and we're inundated with the idea that generally higher is better. So it's pretty human to be concerned with it to some degree. Which I think was part of the OP. How it's easy for people to get 'bent out of shape about'.

 

[MrBlast]

Imagine being that emotionally invested in some random person's iron distances that you have to find their flaws to make yourself feel good hahahahahaha

That's so pathetic.

People are weird. The worst part of the male psychosis is the ego.

 

[blugold]

Getting upset that somebody says they shoot the same scores as you, from closer tees, or they hit their {whatever iron} further than you seems to indicate some fragility. It's like being so upset in a dick measuring contest that you question the ruler.

 

[Canadan]

To be serious for half a second, how far you hit a club is an actual estimation tool used by the industry (sadly, and often quite poorly partly due to club differences), and advertising how far, or how much further you will hit something is pretty much a founding tenet of golf marketing. We are surrounded by it. And people naturally compare themselves to others, their former self, etc. It's part of how people judge themselves, others, their progress even. It's a number that exists and we're inundated with the idea that generally higher is better. So it's pretty human to be concerned with it to some degree. Which I think was part of the OP. How it's easy for people to get 'bent out of shape about'.

I can understand how some people see it differently. I can't imagine befriending someone who justifies my distance by a flaw though - that's something.

 

[James H]

Wow - at the end of the round the only number that matters is the sum of the 18 on my score card. I can't control the other guy - the one who is giving himself a 4 foot and tells me he is at two over through 9- that is his problem not mine.

When I was 20 years younger I could hit my irons 20 yards longer when the lofts were more traditional. My handicap was also closer to 20 vs. my current 10. I prefer the lower handicap and can live with the lesser distance.

On the other hand my son is just taken up the game, if the fact that he will occasionally hit his 7 iron over 200 yards with a GI iron is one of the things that keeps him coming out to play as he struggles to learn the game and has his share of snowmen, I am all for it.

On the tees and the score - I play every Saturday with a gentlemen - for both of us when we break 80 it is a good day. He plays from the tees about 1,000 yards shorter than me. The difference is that when he breaks 80 he is shooting his age, I think I can live with that.

 

[MrBlast]

Getting upset that somebody says they shoot the same scores as you, from closer tees, or they hit their {whatever iron} further than you seems to indicate some fragility. It's like being so upset in a dick measuring contest that you question the ruler.

"That ruler is fake news" he told his girlfriend...

 

[blugold]

"That ruler is fake news" he told his girlfriend...

"Are you sure that's a standard ruler?" asked the guy who also asks what the loft of my 7i is.

"But what was the course rating and slope?" asked the guy who wants to use both the metric and imperial side of the ruler.

 

[OldandStiff]

I can understand how some people see it differently. I can't imagine befriending someone who justifies my distance by a flaw though - that's something.

I mean it really is. And based on the collective reaction to some things I seriously wonder how so many people have actual playing partners.

Finding/pointing out a flaw in someone's golf _____ is kind of an unavoidable truth of golf life though, especially on the internet. People are just waiting to say Brady has a vanity cap, or Bryson will get hurt, or someone does it hit it as far as they do, or whatever. People feel some kind of way about it all.

 

[J4U]

Dynamic loft is something that is often not even in the equation. I'm not sure I even know what the avg is across my set. Will take a look next time I'm on a monitor for sure.

Score jacking is just playing with your emotional state and walks on the beach. Outside a competition where the handicap/rules should level the field.

If actual dynamic # was the same that's on the club #, a discussion could be had I guess. I don't think there is a jacking, other than ego, element.

If someone is working on getting more flight to help with carrys and still be able to hold targets, this new tech is glorious. I love it all!

To have a # club go # distance and get the flight and stopping power someone needs...win-win.

To have a # club go # distance and have a huge gap towards the lower end, that should cause concern about the actual scoring clubs.

If that's the case, those clubs probably aren't what a person needs. It sure is fun though hitting those clubs!

We shouldn't care what the loft is or what club # is on it. If it doesn't create a gapping issue at the top or bottom, swing away.

 

[Tevenor]

This discussion is an interesting corollary to the recent driver release videos. Almost everyone has brand x new driver as better because of a red face and few more yards but at a much wider variation of results. Meanwhile brand Y releases a driver slightly less distance but more consistent, better flight dynamics and tighter dispersion. So which is better?

If I take the loft jacking questions to this dillema, the answer is the same: which fits my ball flight and gaming needs better? In the driver world, do I value the small distance increase over the consistency? If I was a short knocker, maybe I would. But I'm not, so brand Y is better?

Take it back to 7 iron fittings. Do I need extra distance or extra accuracy help? Or maybe a combo of both?

Bragging that you can hit a 7 iron 200+ yards but can't hit a green is the equivalent to bragging how low your spin is on your 7 degree driver when your ball hooks and slices so much your nickname off the tee is "Jack the Ripper".

 

[BostonSal]

I am not really sure why people get so fixated on "loft jacking" and subsequently getting bruised egos over the distance that someone else hits their irons, lol.

If you care about that then you are focused on the complete wrong thing.

Getting bruised egos over distances isn't even a minor factor in the loft jacking discussion.
It's what people who don't care about the stamped numbers on the sole immediately assume, but it's not the issue at all.

The issue goes back to the dawn of the steel shaft era in th 1930s/1940s when club names like brassie, spoon, baffy, cleek, mashie, jigger, niblick, etc.
gave way to club numbers.

Those of us who comment on loft jacking believe that the original numbering system correlated club numbers to loft of the clubhead, not launch window or distance.
Thus, as club design evolved and technology changed, there was no need to change that correlation.
We're trying to say that the modern clubs are designed well and don't need to be changed at all.
They just need to be number-stamped differently so the club number still correlates to the loft.

Others say that loft is virtually irrelevant compared to other engineering metrics and factors.
My answer to that is,

If loft is irrelevant, where are the GI model 1, 2, and 3-irons?
A 13° 1-iron shouldn't be a problem because loft is irrelevant.

No, they stamp the numbers so that they start with 5 and the 9-iron is only halfway down the complete set.
If you think numbers don't matter, fine.
Just don't say that it's about bruised egos because that's not even a minor factor in the argument.

 

[OldandStiff]

"Are you sure that's a standard ruler?" asked the guy who also asks what the loft of my 7i is.

"But what was the course rating and slope?" asked the guy who wants to use both the metric and imperial side of the ruler.

Alright, I spittled a little on that one.

BUT, doesn't the idea of a 'standardized ruler' kind of proove the OP concept? Courses and tees have ratings and a standardizing system. Clubs don't. I mean you're a gym guy. If you ask someone what they bench/squat/etc but the weight plates have no standard, what do any of those numbers actually mean?

I think. Lol It's really hard to keep this going.

 

[MrBlast]

I mean it really is. And based on the collective reaction to some things I seriously wonder how so many people have actual playing partners.

Finding/pointing out a flaw in someone's golf _____ is kind of an unavoidable truth of golf life though, especially on the internet. People are just waiting to say Brady has a vanity cap, or Bryson will get hurt, or someone does it hit it as far as they do, or whatever. People feel some kind of way about it all.

I'm certainly guilty of offering my opinion on players/people on a forum like this but That's for discussion purposes. I would never say anything to them in person or if I found myself playing a round of golf with them. I'm just smart enough to understand that they don't give a rip about my opinion any more than I care about theirs.

 

[BigMac]

Alright, I spittled a little on that one.

BUT, doesn't the idea of a 'standardized ruler' kind of proove the OP concept? Courses and tees have ratings and a standardizing system. Clubs don't. I mean you're a gym guy. If you ask someone what they bench/squat/etc but the weight plates have no standard, what do any of those numbers actually mean?

I think. Lol It's really hard to keep this going.

A guy says "I bench three plates."

(*Not disclosing that he's talking about 25 pound plates, not 45 pound plates*)

 

[mikeg_74]

I really don't think about either, but "score jacking" doesn't even register as something for me to worry about. If someone shoots a certain score my first reaction is good for them regardless of the tees or distances. Golf is hard and anyone coming remotely close to shooting even par or better for 18 holes needs to be celebrated.

The same way I don't care how far someone hits their clubs relative to me. I just never really allowed myself to be bothered or worried about what others do.

 

[MrBlast]

Alright, I spittled a little on that one.

BUT, doesn't the idea of a 'standardized ruler' kind of proove the OP concept? Courses and tees have ratings and a standardizing system. Clubs don't. I mean you're a gym guy. If you ask someone what they bench/squat/etc but the weight plates have no standard, what do any of those numbers actually mean?

I think. Lol It's really hard to keep this going.

We'll...if we're going to talk bench press numbers, we have to discuss arm length and how to properly handicap a guy with longer arms. It's only fair.

 

[blugold]

Alright, I spittled a little on that one.

BUT, doesn't the idea of a 'standardized ruler' kind of other the OP concept? Courses and tees have ratings and a standardizing system. Clubs don't. I mean you're a gym guy. If you ask someone what they bench/squat/etc but the weight plates have no standard, what do any of those numbers actually mean.

I think. Lol It's really hard to keep this going.

Right, I totally understand what you are saying and totally agree with and appreciate "standards".

If I ask somebody what they squat, and my first reaction is to tell them that it doesn't count because it wasn't in competition with calibrated plates, then I am a big ole asshole.

For me, it's the intent on why you're asking the questions that matters. If somebody comes into the bar after the round and says that he just shot even par, or has been scratch all season, and you're first question is to ask what tees he's playing, just so you can put him in his place, seems kind of fragile.

If somebody says that they are absolutely crushing their new irons and you chime in with, "yeah that's because the lofts are jacked up." That's rather fragile.

I guess, I read something a while back, it was a facebook post from a political commentator, about "plonking on joy". The piece described it as doing something, either intentionally or unintentionally, to rapidly put down somebody's happiness. It's a sign of insecurity. I try to be better at not plonking on other's joy. So if somebody comes in and brags up their even par scores, so they're now scratch, from the forward tips or mentions how much further they're hitting their 21° 7i, I just let them have their happiness and tell them how awesome it is. I may be thinking something else in my head, but I keep that to myself. It's more fun to march in somebody else's parade than it is to rain on it.

 

[OldandStiff]

We'll...if we're going to take bench press numbers, we have to discuss arm length and how to properly handicap a guy with longer arms. It's only fair.

I really do have long arms. If I didn't..